I think that an old game, "Die by the Sword" deserves a mention here: The combat system tried to get closer to movie-style combat by eschewing pre-programmed strikes for direct mouse-control over your sword/weapon arm(s).

I imagine if you practised for hundreds of hours you could get pretty good with the system, but it was incredibly difficult with the input device (mouse).

I think in order to get really impressive, random fighting sequences we will need a more intuitive input device, such as a VR glove.

Quote:

Original post by ScootA I think that an old game, "Die by the Sword" deserves a mention here: The combat system tried to get closer to movie-style combat by eschewing pre-programmed strikes for direct mouse-control over your sword/weapon arm(s). I imagine if you practised for hundreds of hours you could get pretty good with the system, but it was incredibly difficult with the input device (mouse). I think in order to get really impressive, random fighting sequences we will need a more intuitive input device, such as a VR glove.

I have that :)
But, like you say, it is difficult to control and generally a side to side swinging affair ( well, with humans, cause they get frantic and start swinging back and forth in a frenzy ) And there was no way to stab at your opponent. Blocking was even more difficult... wait... whoever even tried to block? Heh heh. And with the huge ogre-like dude plus the rotating cross level, heh, one swing and boom, enemy falls to the spikes.

Quote:

Original post by Naxos [...] 1) It seems like 75% of the time, the prince can just attack and hit his opponent on the first try ( whether it kills him or not ). [NOTE: That is not the case later in the game. Those bastards are almost unhittable unless you can lure them and use a counter move, or bouce off of a wall. it's infuriating.] 2) I saw a pattern that was something like "Slash slash slash ( enemy falls ), sand-stealing dagger stab" quite often. 3) When the enemies do block the princes attacks, the block animation is limited to what appeared to be about 3 positions, and the animation chosen didn't necessarily comply with the general angle of attack. 4) I hardly ever saw the prince block. 5) There wasn't a sense of back and forth between the fighters.[...]

I'm surprised nobody's mentions Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3. It works hard (to the detriment of gameplay, at times) to be true to the feel of the fights in the series. It handles your points of contention thus:

1) Initial attacks are sometimes successful, but it gennerally takes some work per hit.

2) There is a nearly endless variety of combos, with status effects, delay penalties, etc. To be fair, top players do tend to favor the most efficient ones.

3) Like the show, "blocks" are often a rapid series of lightning-fast dodges, giving the "near miss" feel of the kung-fu movies.

4) Blocking is crucial, not only for avoiding damage, but for gearing up for counters or maiting for a key pause in an enemy combo during which to retaliate.

5) Back-and-forth is what it's all about. Even when your opponent is defending, you can perform a series of moves that will "hold down the pillow", so to speak, and prevent the fight from degenerating into the smack/countersmack of some games.

The game has its share of problems, like unchanging super-move animations (how many times can I get kicked through the same mountain?) and an RPG stat system that allows my neighbor to make a character that is totally invincible against my guy, even though he can't get through the first three one-player fights, due to combo structure and buffing items. However, on the whole, the fights do well. Some other cinematic elements include:

-Dramatic camera work during some super-moves

-The ability to counter super-moves during those dramatic scenes with a some clever button presses and lucky guesses (those animations also get a little old, though)

-The WWF "beaten until he can't even rise to his hands and knees, but suddenly recovers to full strength and throws the other dude right out of the ring" standard of combacks, featuring multiple energy meters and a "chi" meter that gives you a little oomph when you need it, but doesn't prevent you from totally dominating the other guy if you've got your act together.

-Taunts and a "charge" move that let you do something while the other guy is laying on the ground. It also lets the two fighters get all juiced up and then rush together for a badass showdown of doom.

-If you both fire a huge energy beam simultaneously, they meet and "push" against one another, so you mash the hell out of the attack button until the glowing point of contention goes all teh way to one side and a character gets a blast of feedback.

It's a pretty fun game, although when you get serious about it, the AI is incredibly tough, the levelling curve is damnably steep, and the animations get stale in a hurry. As a spectator sport, though, it's an absolute blast. it isn't technically swordfighting, but you could easily give everyone a scimitar and use the same mechanics. The standard tournament fighting format and camera system (with notable exceptions) make it more game than movie. Give it a look. Don't just watcha movie of it, try playing it. I think you'll get some neat ideas from it.

Well, realistic sword play can probably be done very with the right basic setting. The key is to get the proper mechanics and throw out the frills.

If anyone has read the Kanshin manga, it states, which is fairly accurate, that all techniques and attacks related to using swords stem from 9 types of attacks. All attack and defense moves stem from these attacks types.

1. Vertical top down slash
2. Diagonal 45 degree upper right to lower left
3. Horizontal right to left
4. Diagonal lower right to upper left
5. vertical bottom up
6. Diagonal lower left to upper right
7. Horizontal left to right
8. Diagonal upper left to lower right
9. The standard forward thrust

So, based on these, 9 attack types, there are usually 9 defense moves as well, but its not a one to one mapping though. A move to defend, say, attack 3, may also sort of block attacks 2 and 4 and maybe 9 with varying degrees of effectiveness. So, for a real time fast pace system, I can see something like a stamina bar that governs how many hits you get to chain and then you sort of call out numbers for offense and defense kind of like in boxing where they use a number system to throw certain combos.

So, how would this work in a game? Well, probably alternate between attack mode and defense mode based on which button you have down and then moving an analog stick in the direction you want the attack to be initiated from or the direction you anticipate an attack will come from. This way you can probably get some neat back and forth sword play where its about fast judgement, reflexes and the proper choices.

I think that'd be exciting, but that's just my penny.

I'd just like to throw in that Ninja Gaiden is definitely not too hard. It's old-skool.

And I have to agree with the people who mentioned Soul Calibur above. I remember the good ole' days on DC when my brother, myself, and a few friends spent hours individually learning to counter and parry -- when we brought the fights to each other, even using EdgeMaster, it was on.

I played a star-wars game a year-ago. A arcade game(or whatever they are called), pay per play and you got a gun to shoot with(point at the screen and fire). Most of the game was basicly shoot the troppers/tie-fighters but there was two saber-duels, and they worked sortof like this:

Aming changed the saber position. Attacking worked like moving the target fast. When the enemy was about to attacked there was an icon where the attack would strike. Moving the target to this icon blocked the attack.

Translating this to a computer, moving the target would be moving the mouse. The character could stab when you click the mouse.


When thinking of moving the sword with the mouse I come to think of a game I played a long time ago(newer than die by sword IIRC). The camera in the game was resident-evil-1-2-and-3 static. And movement was done by clicking on the ground(shift for walk/run IIRC). Sword movement was basicly clicking and dragging the mouse. The feel was kinda movie-like, and the story was that your girl/wife was kidnapped by the evil one. IIRC close to the end in the demo you had to walk though a never-ending-story gate that electrified(sp?) you if you was "bad".

Quote:

Original post by Naxos Oni: Well, I didn't find any video of Oni wielding a sword (only guns and melee), but if the melee is any indication, then I'd guess that its swordplay is not what I'm looking for.

I didn't mean the actual fighting, more like the control-system... lmb:punch(or use the weapon), rmb:kick. If you weren't punching and kicking the character blocked the attacks automaticly with the same alltitude (ie when standing low attacks weren't blocked but standing attacks was ). In this case there my be another close to style. Ie instead of punshing the sword may be used. (Unfortunately) Oni had combos, but there could be "combos" to change the animations of the attacks. The combos doesn't inrece damage or attack-rate, but gives a more realistic feel look.

[Edited by - sirGustav on July 15, 2005 6:31:43 AM]

Movie-like swordplay is not just a matter of swinging sword around like your swatting flies. It involves fancy footwork and clever use of terrain. There's a good little sword fight in the film 'Princess Bride' (funny film too) where they make good use of the terrain.

Due to the complexity of the animations needed I believe a good combo system is only way to go. If you must use a mouse then use a pattern matching technique similar to that used in black and white. That way the mouse movements will feel intuitive as it follows the course of the sword, but not in direct control of the sword.

As far as controling the flow of battle is concerned I have the following suggestion. The player who has advantage must perform the combos with increasing accuracy. As soon as they fail a combo then the advantage falls to their opponent. Whilst at a disadvantage the player must time correctly their evades and blocks. Its important to remember that a player cannot mantain advantage forever, as the ability to perform combo will become eventaually impossible. This is just the basics, it would be posible to add counter atacks and counter-counter attack and throws etc.

Or you can just ignore me.

Lots of good ideas here. Some of them are quite similar to how I had been thinking about it. I had once wrote down some ideas for a gameplay as follows:

Quote:

Some specifics about the combat system: There are several defined angles of attack. - You can slice at your opponents body from the left, the right, or you can attack with a direct stab. - You can attack your opponents head with a stab or come down upon them like hammer to a nail ( BAM! Ouch ) - You can attack your opponents leg from the left or the right ( leg, not legs, because his/her body will not be facing you directly, one leg will be in front of the other ) - Their will be different styles of attack depending on the weapon of choice. But, no matter the animation, all attacks will be directed towards a specific subset of target areas. Avatars do not have unique attacks planned at this time The blocking system will also be unlike anything I've encountered thus far. - For every attack that comes your way, you will have to block it, or you will get hurt ( obviously :] ). Each attack will have to be blocked manually. This might sound odd, frustrating, annoying, or simply overkill, but the blocking system will have a feature that allows the attacked person to get a small glimpse of where the strike will land before it happens. Call it a warrior's intuition, if you will. - There are two ways to avoiding injury: Blocking with your weapon, and dodging. This also may sound like overkill, but the game will try to give the player almost unlimited freedom in how he/she plays, much like a real warrior would be able to attack and defend without using premeditated "combos". I've not yet pinned down exactly the ( default ) layout for commands to allow the player such freedom. Time will unravel the answer. Footwork: - The game will employ a system of footwork that will also play a role for players who want to go even deeper into their strategies. Currently planned are two stances. They are fairly straight forward. ( If your opponent is north of you ) You can either face west-northwest, with your right foot forward, or you can face east-northeast, with your left foot forward. - Depending on your stance, you have different attacking options available to you. - Attacking with regards to footwork: - Basically, you can attack and change your foot work ( you push forward a bit, and your back leg become your forward leg ) and your opponent must take a step back ( this will happen automatically ) thus forcing your opponent to change his attacking options. Note that forward attacks ( ones that change your stance ) take away a greater amount of stamina ( whoops, I'll get to that in a moment ) and several forward attacks in a row will deplete your stamina. - You can also attack without forward motion, this takes less stamina. - Blocking with regards to footwork: - When you block an attack, you have between 2 and 3 options with regard to footwork. In the first case, you might block the attack without changing footwork, this is the default block scenario. - Also, you could block and step back ( your forward foot now becomes your back foot, and thus your stance is changed ). This back step could also occur involuntarily if your opponent executes a forward attack. - Lastly, iff ( if and only if ) you are attacked with a regular ( not forward ) attack, you can push your opponent forward, unbalacing them momentarily ( they will be unable to attack as well ) allowing you to push forward with your own attack, or take a small pause in the action. This type of block takes away a good portion of your stamina. In regards to stamina: - Well, this isn't too unusual. You know the drill ( mostly ). You can attack until you are without stamina. Forward attacks take away more stamina than regular attacks. Blocking ( unless it is a forward pushing block ) does not take stamina ( or it is not planned at this time ).

It has basic footwork like StaticVoid ( though terrain doesn't play a role in this design ). And similar attack angles like Weirdo Fu brought up ( but not exactly the same ). I guess the stamina would be a replacement for the timing accuracy that Static talked about... but the timing thing is growing on me ( except I'm not sure how to count combo accuracy if attacking is implemented in a mouse ) SirGustav, I think I may have played the game you're talking about. If the last level is you ( Luke S. ) vs Vader, then yea, I played it. It was fun but somewhat slow ( the combat ) and you didn't really have a choice of attack, it just told you what to do, and if you did it, you win. And I'll see if I can rent the DBZ game and give it a try.<br><br>My friend didn't like this system, that's why I scraped it a while back.<br>Overall though, what do you guys think are the good/bad points of the "Quoted" description?<br><br>Thanks.

I actually like the stamina idea. Combos could be stamina weighted allowing the player to decide whether to go for a flurry of quick attacks or one all out killer attack. The quicks attacks have more probability of hitting were as the killer attack is like 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.

I wasn't intending the mouse control to be the definitive approach. I only suggested it if you wanted the player to feel like they were wielding the sword. It would be easier and just as fun to implement a comprehensive keyboard based combo system. I would suggest quick attack, power attack, block and evade keys along with directional keys to be sufficient.

Combos can be context sensitive to allow for changes in terrain and stance. Certain combos are only available when fighting up stairs for instance.

What differentiates this system from others is the toing and froing between attack and defend (advantage and disadvantage).

Quote:

Combos could be stamina weighted allowing the player to decide whether to go for a flurry of quick attacks or one all out killer attack. The quicks attacks have more probability of hitting were as the killer attack is like 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.

Depending on damage systems, this may or may not work out. If it's based on a pool of points that can be taken away by X amount depending on attack, then it would fit well. But if it's more realistically based, then any good strike, whether it's a quick attack or a killer attack, would be potentially fatal.

Of course, if you have a realistic damage system, then you might not differentiate between the strengths of various attacks.

In the case of movie-esque battles, one could argue that the pool is a good idea, because it allows the players to fight and have a chance to attain cinematic moments. On the other hand, one could say that realistic damages would be better, because who gets stabbed 5 times in a movie and continues to fight, eh?

So there are a lot of things to consider...

So I guess I'm really wonder if there is a way to balance what I'd consider the 4 key elements:
1 - Fights that have an intense, cinematic quality ( ie, it wouldn't look odd in a movie )
2 - Fights that require strategy ( ie, knowledge of the rules is fundamental, but improvisation and adaptability come into play. Also implies that novices will be considerably 'outgunned', so to speak, against skilled players )
3 - Fights that require decent reflexes.
4 - Fights that would be nearly as much fun to watch as they are to play. ( again, playing into the cinematic quality. )

Hmmm... so much to consider...

What do you think?