Advertisement

Cryo - Between Characters and Story

Started by March 16, 2005 05:39 AM
79 comments, last by GameDev.net 19 years, 7 months ago
Quote:
I never told SaS that she should quit writting,


Err - no, that's true, you didn't. No one's accusing you of that. I haven't told you to quit writing either. No one has told anyone to quit writing. Where does this come from?

Quote:
I gave her my opinion of the project and why. I did not degrade her like you continue to do me by telling her her work is best suited for a pong game


Actually, my opinion is that you did degrade her - that's the whole issue.

Also, was it not degrading to call SnS' supporters 'weak people' who always root for the moderator? So why the surprise at my tone?

Quote: I asked for civility by first being civil, what is hard about dropping the issue? I admitted responisibility for not using tact in my first few posts and admitted that the fact is they pushed the conversation off topic and hurt what the argument between the two of them was about


Yeah, but try and follow me here, because this is where it gets technical. You see, you *did* apologise, which is appreciated, especially by SnS, I'm sure. But by the time you did, I had *already* made my reply to you. In the thread where you first showed signs of regretting your words, you came back at my already-written reply, and the ball was rolling. See, if your apology post had been in there *before* I'd had a chance to reply, I wouldn't have felt the need to reply at all. But the deal started *before* that, so don't act too hurt if it seems that I have ignored your (very understandable) desire to let the issue drop.
***Symphonic Aria,specialising in music for games, multimedia productions and film. Listen to music samples on the website, www.symphonicaria.com.
Quote: Original post by slowpid
Sunandshadow, as the moderator and no matter your personal feelings of me, is it acceptable to you that Vaevictis_A is discourageous of me as a writter just because I am new. Should you be allowing people in YOUR forum to tell beginners that they are not allowed to post...I have never, ever seen that on gamedev on hope that I never will.


Normally I would yell at people for saying something like that, but since this thread has been a flame war since the bottom of page one, I figured insults being slung around was par for the course. As a proper moderator I should have closed the thread when it got flamey, except it was halfway my fault and also the technical discussion was and is still ongoing, and I was curious to see where it would go. So basically, I've been ignoring all insults in this particular thread evenly. I would definitely prefer it if everyone refrained from flaming though.

Quote: To SaS; I am sorry that my comments were off base. My only problem with you is our difference in subject matter. Going back to read the posts it seems that the problem is in story structure as I have stated before, I prefer the method that Estok hads chosen to use, cohesive overall. Your worldbuilding method is another tool used by many successfull writers and you have the right to use whatever it is you are comfortable with. When I read the post in which you explained why it is all your stories seem similar, the one about exploring subject matter, characters and relations I felt bad for having attacked you on this issue. The problem I have with much of your writting is that it seems, as someone who is studying psychology, your character realtions are skewed. I would have no problem with the homosexual sex or the bdsm if I felt it was properly explained. Meaning that to someone who is looking at those two elements as deviant behavior arising from other personal issue I was looking for an accurate explaination of why exactly the characters turned out the way they did.


Ah, that does indeed explain one reason you might percieve my character psychology as skewed. I don't believe that homosexuality is caused by other personal issues, I believe that it is simply a mis-targeting of regular human courting behavior caused by genetic and hormonal factors. This is my belief after doing quite a bit of research on homosexuality and from my personal experience as a bisexual, observing that such a small chemical change as switching from one birth control prescription to another can push my preferances more toward one gender or the other, or in one unpleasant instance muffled my sexuality completely so I had to go around feeling neuter for a month before I could get the prescription switched again.

Quote: In fact I think your writting would be very interesting if you included more of the elements of why the characters were attracted to each other.


This is one of the things I think (hope ;) ) has improved in my most recent writing, and also one of the areas I am still studying by examining how different fanfiction writers describe the same set of characters. Thank you for the constructive suggestion. :)

Quote: Activly seeking out abuse is something that people do subconsciously, if you could find elements to help describe this then I would suggest to my friends that they read it...however without these elements the writting seems to focused on the actual act and not the events that lead into it.


I don't think I've even written anything about one character abusing another, have I? o.O The only masochist characters I have ever created are Follow and Attranath, (practically the same character because they're based on the same character archetype) and their stories are both still in the concept phase, so I'm not sure what writing is focused on acts of abuse. Oh, maybe you're thinking of the scene in Facepaint where Mareu gets scratched bloody? But Mareu isn't a masochist, he didn't enjoy that or seek it out. In Uke On Top there isn't any pain or abuse, just some light bondage. But anyway, I definitely do think the psychology of the submissive/masochist is fascinating and studying the why of this sort of behavior is an important part of including a character like this in a story, especially a D/s romance.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

Advertisement
I disagree that this thread was turning into a flamewar at the end of page 1, if so, it was because of s/s's misinterpretation of the comments I made:

Quote:
Quote: *I think that animal traits make the design worse for a story about romance for mature audience. On top of that you chose the anime style and decided to include BDSM. I don't see how it artistically romanitcises the story, other than making it less mature.
What does that have to do with Cryo? I know you feel that way about Xenallure and you know I disagree, so what's the point of mentioning it?


In s/s's comment she added the assumption that I based my comment on a personal feeling. In other words, she thought I was attacking just because I don't like it. But that is not the reason, as you can read the * portion of the reply that followed:

Correlation between mature content and mature presentation

After that the word 'addiction' and 'no-brainer' became questionable, because the words were taken as personal insults than what they actually mean in the context. 'No-brainer' refers to the decisions that a designer would make just because of intuition or habit. 'Addiction' refers to one of the driving forces behind such decisions. 'Addiction' is exemplified by the repeated use and the intensified use of elements without objective justification. In order to show you what I meant by objective justification, I showed you how the general trend of mature romance does not favor elements such as animal traits.

After that there were more questionable words such as 'freaks', that were interpreted as insults. I didn't know that s/s was thinking that I was saying that people with different sexuality as freaks.

Characters in Addams Family are freaks, and it was attractive.
Characters in Ranma 1/2 are freaks, and that was also why they were attractive.

There are ways to take out the melodramatic tones in these designs to retain the psychological voltage of the discrepancy between the expectations and the appearance created by freakiness. It is the same kind of energy that attracts a viewer to read a mystery story, it is the 'it is incredible!' factor.

Notice how although I said that your implementation of animal traits did not match the trend of mature expectation, after you had clarified your target audience I started another argument based on the clarified context.

It takes two to create a misinterpretation. But it should be clear that it was not flame.
Cryo - Conflicts and Endings
Quote: I would like to see the conclusions of the different story as well as documentation of the actual moral decision the player would come into.

The design of Cryo revolves around a spectrum of conflicts. The endings of the stories correspond to the logical consequences of the judgement of the player on the presented conflicts. The properties about the player that the game will assess include:

Judgement – Assesses the degree to which the PC believes a view or situation. The PC can be classified as Gullible or Prejudiced, Skeptical, and Alert.

Action – Assesses how the PC take action in terms of finding the truth. The PC can be classified as apathetic, inactive, active, indulgent

Moral Alignment – Assesses whether the PC is in general good or evil


The Conflicts:

The global conflict:

C1) Suspicion between the races due to an unacknowledge history (Most of the people above the crust did not know that there was a war in the past between the races. In the beginning, the races decided to hide that past so they could survive peacefully, but now the history is coming back to haunt them.)

The RNPC inner personal conflicts:

C2) Shamila's struggle between her personality and her duty. (Shamila is intrinsically peaceful, but her inheritance destined her to become something contradicts her personality. Double personality induced by external forces.)

C3) Frequency's struggle between justice and forgiveness. (Her father was an exile of the Cincra. In many ways Frequency found exile unjust. But at the same time her father is forgiving the Cincra. So Frequency developed a psychology where although she seeks justice at heart, on the surface she actively rejects it. Double personality induced by internal debate.)

C4) Krystal's struggle between serving the past or saving the present. (Her conflict comes from the fact that she was your lover, but the memory of the past was agonizing, that she did not want to restore. If she decides to save the present, she would sacrifice again to lock herself with the Cryo resulting in a eternal stalemate. From her perspective it was a lose-lose situation, and the player is supposed to change that.)

The nine supplementary, political conflicts:

C5) Wryuka's struggle to protect in the expense of others' lives. (The classic 'we fight because if we don't we would be extinct.')

C6) Cherro's struggle between being precautious and overcautious. (She belongs to the secret organization that retained the records about the war. Throughout the years, the truth behind the war had became obscure. The evolved duty of the cult is to preemptively destroy the other race's strategy before they would restart the war.)

C7) Surah's struggle about trust. (She belonged to the same organization. But by that time there was no indication that a revenge would ever happen, since the races were already living peacefully and were integrating. Luth was another member who believed that the organization should not continue and instead free the energies reserved for the counter attack for the development of the new city of NaraSuh that would combine the strengths of Cincra and TaraSuh. It was not an acceptable proposal, and the organization turned against him. Surah, being his lover, was caught in the battle about trust and visions.)

C8) Luth's struggle about regret. (The result of his conflict from the organization eventually led to the Surah's death. And the development of NaraSuh uncovered the ruins of the past, evidence of vast deposite of TaraSuh military equipments, the fear of the organization.)

C9) Hoplite's struggle about defending in the face of doom. (The classic 'never give up')

C10) Templar's struggle about the cost and meaning of defense. (The templars were created for the sole purpose of defending against the wryuka, near the end of the war there was already nothing much left, for what exactly were they defending?)

C11) Demon-form's revenge of the intruders. (The classic 'you must pay for what you have done.')

C12) Angel-form's acknowledgement and forgiveness of the past.

C13) Cryo's timeout.


The corresponding conclusions led by judgement, action, and moral alignment:

C1) Whether a war will resume or be resolved. This is based on how the player make decisions about justice, forgiveness, and the player's position on suspicion and faith. The action of the player will make the RNPC think toward the bad sides or the good sides about the clues, leading them to believe either the ruins represent a war being imminent and inevitable that they must strike first to stop it, or that there was already great sacrifice and faith embedded in the cryo to prevent the war. The player will shift the perspectives of the RNPC on whether a war was being mobilized or demobilized.

For RNPCs, the conclusions include whether a relationship is successfully established. The followings are the additional meanings. All RNPC and NPC are subjected to death in certain scenarios.

C2) The endings for Shamila includes whether the player is able to dissolve the cold war between the races, so that Shamila no long need to live the double life. It can go the other way where Shamila loses faith about the good of mankind and turn completely cold blood.

C3) The endings of Frequency involves whether the player succesfully stop her from flee from her inner conflicts, resolve her relationship with her father, and the Cincra.

C4) The endings of Krystal involves whether you discover the situation on time to prevent her sacrifice. The player is supposed to confront and defeat the demon-form. The bad ending involves she turning against you because you are evil or that she had become evil.


The conclusions of the other nine conflicts can be seen as subplot.

C5) Whether the wryuka queen would be incited to launch again to protect the eggs, or that she would entrust you with the coninuation of her species.

C6) Cherro: whether she would see the heart of her daughter and feel remorse over what she had done.

C7) Surah: The conclusion will show how she actually died, whether she trusted luth or not as a foreshadow of the current situation.

C8) Luth: Involves whether his vision was correct, and whether the intention was more important than the circumstance for the situation.

C9) Hoplite: whether they will run wild and destroy the world above the crust, be destroyed as enemies, or demobilized and integrated back to peace.

C10) Templar: whether it will feel justified to continue its purpose, or to help resolve the crisis

C11) Demon-form: Whether you kill it or it kills you.

C12) Angel-form: Whether it neutralizes the demon or get killed.

C13) Cryo: Whether it breaks or not.



Quote: I feel that the elements you have included will be hard to acculminate in nine different endings
There are more than nine different endings. The player will not go through everything in one game run. When you say 'hard to accumulate', do you mean there are too many or too little? Or that they don't fit together?



Choosing an RNPC
Quote: When and at what point does the character have enough information to make the decision on what rnpc they will choose?
The player start choosing an RNPC from the beginning. In the beginning, the player will only pick them based on preference and pick whoever the player wants to know more about. The player can switch RNPC when back at the cities.

The analogy is a tavern filled with heroes. When the player is about to begin an adventure, the player will select an RNPC to go with (or select none). In reality, the RNPCs have they own activities and shedules and do not just sit around, but the game will give the player hints where they could be found. The player can almost always contact Frequency by her cellphone. Whether she would show up is a different matter. To contact Shamila is harder because that involves magical abilities that will be based on the PC's magical skills. The idea is that magical phonecalls are minigames that takes some skills to dial. The differences in difficulty is intentional to show the differences of life styles of the races through gameplay. Krystal is a little hard to find. In fact she would become a missing child. Her whereabout is strongly linked to the mystery, and if the player exhausts the clues the player can ask Gillieon, the one who actually sits at the tavern.


Quote: As I understand many of these decisions are made near the beginning, like when you say that if not choosen Frequency will die near the beginning....will the character have encountered enough moral decisions by that point to help lend some credence to the death of frequency, or is it by that point luck on the decisions they made?
If the player is not expected to know why Frequency would die in the beginning. Her death is more related to the overall mystery of the story than moral decisions, yet the reaction of the player upon hearing the new will be used to assess the alignment. In general, Frequency would only die in the beginning if the player doesn't do anything about the mysteries. In other words, if the player just let the RNPCs continue their suspicious behaviors without intercepting, Frequency will die as an alarm. Since this is a mystery game, there are 'gameover'.

Gameovers correspond to the game states, due to the player's inaction or indecision, the plot has progressed into a deadend. Frequency's death serves as a sign that the plot is running into a deadend because the player is inresponsive to the crisis behind the scenes. In Cryo, the player is expected to use the knowledge from another game run to prepare for the current game run. It is correct that the PC will behave like a prophet. This is the dynamic of the feedback across game runs, where the more the PC behaves like a prophet, the more likely the RNPCs suspect the PC. That is how the game balances the diffculty with the accumulation of information in replays. This is also another instance of delivering conflict through gameplay, while the player knows that he is trying to help the situations, the player also feels the suspicion being generated by the very act of helping.



Cont. Character and Story

Shamila


Shamila - The story introduces her as a warm, kind, compassionate Cincra researcher. What you are seeing here is the cold, merciless, impersonal side of her identity. The race Cincra is orderly, and systematic, therefore Shamila is calm and thoughtful on both her warm and cold sides, an observant investigator, and a meticulous murderer. The Cincra do not believe in faith, luck, or divine favor, but effort and determination. In order to preserve the order, they must act with the power in their own hands.

[Edited by - Estok on April 29, 2005 12:01:06 AM]
@Estok: Sorry this isn't related to any of the topics at hand, but it might be worth pointing out that many people have been banned from deviantART for attempting to hotlink. Also, copying+pasting the URL of the image brings up a Forbidden page.
>>[.G.R.]
Advertisement
thanks, I wasnt' aware of that
I had to read through this twice before extracting the pertinent information. And I still may have missed something. Anyway, here goes nothing.

Quote: What do you think about the characters and their relations and potential relations to the story?

The most confusing aspect of your descriptions so far for me had to do with character motivation. There are too many unanswered questions, and as such, it makes the story seem rather shallow. As in, there isn't any hidden depth beyond the barest minimum for the story to work. (Which it does, I'm actually rather impressed with the story itself, at least the bit you revealed. Some aspects are a little fuzzy, but I'll get to that.)


Main Characters

Krystal
Quote: She is your former lover that had sacrificed herself to remind you of your revenge.

This confused the hell out of me until I had read through all the posts twice. After some cross-referencing and some speculation, it now seems to me that what was meant was that she sacrificed her former life (knowing full well she would be awakened) to activate the Cryo. If this is the case (And If I'm wrong, please clarify), then there is one thing that I can't understand. She activated the Cryo, knowing both she and you would awaken at some time in the future (Question : What determines when they were to be awakened?), and was supposed to take you to the Cryo to regain your memories (Which for some reason she didn't lose, I'm assuming as a side-effect of being 'reborn'?). What exactly changed in that time, that she would now have an inner conflict of performing that task? Did she quickly become attached to the new world she found herself in? Fear of losing you? (Note: I'm basing all this on the conclusion that your regaining your memory would result in the 'unthawing' of the frozen war. Again, please correct me if I'm drawing the wrong conclusions.)

The major detail missing is what changed for Krystal between past and present, that is the basis of her inner conflict?

Shamila
Quote: Shamila is intrinsically peaceful, but her inheritance destined her to become something contradicts her personality. Double personality induced by external forces.

Why is Shamila subject to these external forces? That is to say, what motivations does she have that prevent her from following her personality. Why does she have the obligations that she does, and more importantly, why is it that she can't shirk those responsibilities?
Quote: She has way less interest in you than the power within you documented vaguely in the ancient text

What? What power? You mean the ability to set the war in motion? More specifically, why is she interested in this power? What goal of hers involves this power?

Frequency
Quote: She is a vulnerable target and mysteriously dies near the beginning of the story if nothing is done.

Why is Frequency a target? Is it because of past transgressions? And if so, who is targeting her? Also... what are her motivations?

Err.... I have more I wanted to say, but it's getting late. GDNet always suckers me in like this. I'll try to add some more in the morning, but no promises.
Thanks for reading through. I am in the process of creating a representation of the story, since the bottleneck of developing a complex multiplot story is in fact the cost of representing it and verifying (debugging the story) during the design phase. (i.e. I am wrting an editor for the storyboard. It is all about prototypying the story. In this case, the prototype also allows you to play through story.)

Characters:

Krystal
Quote:
Quote: She is your former lover that had sacrificed herself to remind you of your revenge.

This confused the hell out of me until I had read through all the posts twice. After some cross-referencing and some speculation, it now seems to me that what was meant was that she sacrificed her former life (knowing full well she would be awakened) to activate the Cryo. If this is the case (And If I'm wrong, please clarify), then there is one thing that I can't understand. She activated the Cryo, knowing both she and you would awaken at some time in the future (Question : What determines when they were to be awakened?), and was supposed to take you to the Cryo to regain your memories (Which for some reason she didn't lose, I'm assuming as a side-effect of being 'reborn'?). What exactly changed in that time, that she would now have an inner conflict of performing that task? Did she quickly become attached to the new world she found herself in? Fear of losing you? (Note: I'm basing all this on the conclusion that your regaining your memory would result in the 'unthawing' of the frozen war. Again, please correct me if I'm drawing the wrong conclusions.)
The major detail missing is what changed for Krystal between past and present, that is the basis of her inner conflict?

In the past, you were defeated and his body and spirit (power, memory, id) got separated. The body was locked in a cryogenic pod by the TaraSuh, and the soul was sealed by the Cincra. Before you were sealed, Krystal sacrificed to seal her spirit in you, to give you back the memory in the case that you will be awakened. "Cryo" refers to the Cincra crystal that sealed your spirit. The job of krystal is to break it to let the spirit return to you.

In the story, you can say that it is only by chance that the cryogenic pod is discovered. Semantics-wise, the frozen layer represents a problem in the past that had not been solved, and such problem would show up again and again untill it is solved.

Krystal didn't lose her memory because her spirit is with you. But her body is gone. The Krystal you see in game is a ghost, but you don't know it. After you were revived. Krystal wants to lead you to break the Cryo, so that you can remember her and finish the war. Depending on how you play, Krystal might realized that the war is no longer meaningful to you, and that the memory is too painful. Therefore there is an inner conflict where she wants to let you remember, but also wants you to let go of the past. She watches you as you adapt to a new, happy life, the life that you and her fought for. The only problem is that it is not a life with her anymore.

She did not become quickly attached to the new world. You did. There is nothing changed for Krystal between past and present, except she lost her body. Her inner conflict is caused by you changing.

Breaking the Cryo will continue the war (your part of the war).


Shamila
Quote:
Quote: Shamila is intrinsically peaceful, but her inheritance destined her to become something contradicts her personality. Double personality induced by external forces.

Why is Shamila subject to these external forces? That is to say, what motivations does she have that prevent her from following her personality. Why does she have the obligations that she does, and more importantly, why is it that she can't shirk those responsibilities?

This is an heritage/tradition issue. The Cincra believes in their own power. As a race, this power correspond to a hierarchy of command, where each individual strongly believes in his role and responsibilities in keeping the order. Shamila is inherited the role of a protector (in reality, she is more like an assassin, since 'the best defense is a good offense'). Culturally, it is important for her to fulfill it. In the context of the story, there is also no one else suitable for the role, due to the training required and the importance of keeping the secrecy of the role. Shamila was trained to fulfill that role since she was small, just like her mother, and her grandmother.

Quote:
Quote: She has way less interest in you than the power within you documented vaguely in the ancient text

What? What power? You mean the ability to set the war in motion? More specifically, why is she interested in this power? What goal of hers involves this power?

You spiritual power. During the war, the extend of your power was recorded, but not understood. The Cincra secretly kept those records. As a protector, Shamila must seize it before the enemy (TaraSuh) does. So Shamila is also trying to understand your power to stop you and the war (i.e. first get your power, and then kill you and kill the other race before they can do anything to the Cincra).


Frequency
Quote:
Quote: She is a vulnerable target and mysteriously dies near the beginning of the story if nothing is done.

Why is Frequency a target? Is it because of past transgressions? And if so, who is targeting her? Also... what are her motivations?

Luth, the directory of the NaraSuh project (The mixed city to promote integration of the two races) is a Cincra exile from the same secret cult that Shamila is in. Part of Shamiila's job is to terminate the traitors. And Luth is seen as one of them. However, Luth had converted into a TaraSuh and lost his signature as a Cincra. So Shamila can't readily tell that he was a Cincra. Frequency is Luth's daughter. So, by induction she is also a traitor, or at least a threat to the race. That is why Frequency needs to be terminated also, after Shamila sensed a partial Cincra signature in her.



Yo. Only read the first page and parts of the last... All in all, I like the concept of the game. But please tell me there's a way to have a real relationship with Krystal by the end. Nothing depresses me more than an hopeless love story.

I basically see it as this, correct me if I'm wrong. It's an adventure game of sorts. There are lots of adventure games out there with many different endings based on your actions. Yours has this, but there are also many different beginnings based on your actions, and you find out about them through detective work in the game.

Doesn't seem overly-complex to me. And as for the combining of Sci-fi and fantasy... it works. They're almost the same genre to begin with, and there are plenty of works out there that have both. i.e. Star Wars. Futuristic technology. Magic. Prophecies. Aliens. It's all good.
----------------------------------------------------------No matter how eloquently you state your argument, the fact remains that the toilet seat is a bistable device. Therefore it's natural position is no more down than it is up.[SDL Smooth Tile Scrolling]

This topic is closed to new replies.

Advertisement