Hn. A few points I would like to make:

- The collaborative story ended up looking like my writing because nobody else was actually creating new material to make the project progress. Nothing in the project's design has been 'mellowed by other, better writers' because there have effectively been no other writers. The current design doc is 66 pages long and I wrote all except 2 of those pages, and created all the characters. I refuse to cry 'mea culpa' for being the only one with a drive to get something done.

- I don't think that people are really affected that much by me being a moderator because people responded to me the same way before I was made a moderator. It's not like I have phenomenal godlike powers - if I were to ban someone without a good reason another moderator would reverse it and I would get reprimanded. All I do around here is move posts that are in the wrong forum and tell people not to flame. Which BTW calling people food probably counts as flaming, so let's not go there.

- Everyone is entitled to their own esthetic opinion of Xenallure, or of the rest of my writing for that matter. If you hate it, that's fine, I know it's impossible to please everyone. My mother, for example, hates my writing. I would, however, appreciate a calm, analytical evaluation of its technical flaws - I am still waiting to hear what is unrealistic about my character relations. As for the animal traits and the BDSM, I will reiterate that it is my opinion as a writer that they do deliver the message. I would even say that, since one of Xenallure's design goals to provide a courtable character for every player's taste, we could not achieve this goal without using some BDSM elements. Really, I'm getting tired of discussing them since I don't see them as particularly important or unusual elements of the game's design. Nobody critiques FF8 for having BDSM elements that are more extreme than anything I would do in Xenallure. (Zell is beaten by prison guards, Squall is crucified on a wall and electroshocked?!?) So, is there anything besides these that constitutes 'poor story design'?

hmmmm.....in ff8 I dont remember anyone getting any sexual pleasure out of squalls electrocution or zells beating.....maybe not remembering correctly.

Finally im not gonna argue that I haven't given you accurate analysis of why I dont like your story structure, so I'll write it up eventually when I'm not bogged down with homework and I'll PM it to you.

Lastly: The queen is a figure head for england like you are a figure head of the writing forum on gamedev. People still listen to figureheads more than they would to joeblow.

finally very lastly: I do appreciate how much help you give people in the writing forum on the technical side of writing, your tutorials and such are helpfull.

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
Because up until now, you've been trying to hide your personal distaste for the project and your personal dislike for, ahem, the involved people, behind pretty and objective words. The moment you used 'ugly', it became obvious that the real 'you' just couldn't stand to sit and hide behind phrases like 'logical flaw' or 'you misread my statement'.

I don't think I need to hide anything. It was pretty obvious how I felt, and pretty obvious how I view s/s as a member of a team project. But that is separate from the current discussion. I took a step forward because AG hinted that the discussion was too deep. Therefore I used a not as deep word to express the same thing. Saying that the designs were 'ugly' is what I would have said if I didn't try to explain all the details and principles behind why it is ugly. It is at the same level of comment that s/s gave about war being distasteful. I tuned down the depth of the discussion as request, I wasn't blowing up.

Quote: Yes, but you knew that these designs were not meant to be. It's all in the 'allure' part of the title, and you were even part of the development. You knew.

Yes I think I know it. I did not ignore the 'allure' part. The question is what is it that allures the player. The name suggests that it is the 'Xenoness' that is doing the attraction. What does that mean, it means that the characters and designs are supposed to be alien, strange, freaky. And in this context, freakiness is why the player will be attracted.

Quote: Come on, Estok, why all the subterfuge? Be direct. Let it all out. Tell us how you really feel.

I was always direct. What do you mean subterfuge. I was direct when I said that it was ugly. What are you complaining about?

If you want to know how I feel you can read the same posts again. I don't need to change anything. How I feel however has nothing to do with the actually comments about the designs, and you should be able to see that the comments are not based on personal issues, but logical deduction based on the very design document written by the designers. In a nutshell I have only been representing the design document in the exposure of incoherences and design flaws introduced by the designers. So when s/s tries to prove me wrong, she is actually trying to prove that the design document is wrong. That is why I said she should really look at my comments carefully before replying instead of replying out of impression, so that she doesn't shoot her own feet.

Re: Slowpid

Quote: Original post by slowpid
I'm not sure about this, as someone who watched the project get structured and even 'almost' posted a few times, the problem I had, and possibly Estok also(although there is no way to say that it is true at all so dont assume this is how he feels) is angry...

My emotion is not anger. It is a waste that a moderator cannot make objective comments and involve in objective decision making. In many ways the views she has is narrower than normal. That poses a threat to the forum because little kids actually bite them. I have already brought this up many times, probably as early as in Dreambell the first of my thread she commented on. It is not hard to see.

Quote: It's no coincidence that the story contains all the 'niche' writting and such that Sunandshadow uses in her own personal stories. The modertor has a certain amount of control and respect outright because of their position....what I saw as bias'ing peoples thinking about how the game was shaped. In my opinion it became a forum for Sunandshadow to create her own game and get feedback and attention towards ideas that she does not otherwise really get with her own writting, mainly on the subject of the use of romance, slight BDSM and animal characteristics; all of which Sunandshadow uses without caution in her work.

If you think about it, I shouldn't be commenting on her current project because it is actually going to help it. Although I didn't read her works, I believe that there is a talent being wasted by the lack of objective thoughts. The question is how to put that talent back to better use. I probably won't be here a year from now. She would probably still be here. I have tried the normal channels of communications but she saw them as personal attacks. If you weigh between the benefits and influences, you will see that she is in a more effective position of delivering ideas. Therefore it is reasonable to sacrifice in exchange for messages communicated through the subconscious level. So that even though she doesn't accept in overty, the effect can still be etched in her subconscious.

Quote: Im not saying that it was Sunandshadows intention to do this, all I am saying is that there are influencing, conscious and un-counsious characteristics of her position as the moderator in the writing forum that led to a story that can be directly linked with all her writing....the line, if you dont know or cant plainly see, is a correlation between the poor story design (that is attempting to deliver the 'message' while using traits that dont fit, but forcing them anyways because you like them and just want to use them.) and her own bad writing structure.

I think this is correct. The idea of seeing a the main purpose of a story is to deliver a story is probably quite new. It was based on the argument over whether we should have a central idea before deciding on the characters and worldbuilding. I think she is still in the process of subconsciously adopting the view that the message of the story can be something beyond the characters and relations between the characters. For the animal traits again, I don't think she is a moron therefore I said she was addicted.

Quote: I dont like the xenallure project, in fact, I hate it. I think that is ill concieved and based on Sunandshadows poor story design mellowed slightly by the fact there are other, and better writers, who put in their two cents every once in a while and things average out to bad, but not as bad as could be.

This is what I warned as the project broke apart. I told her that she need to weed out the contents that she added without understanding, because those contents have semantic signatures that you can't just yank them out and use in a different story. Right now the project is very grotesque, almost like a frankenstein that is not even green overall.

Quote: forgive my grammer and spelling, I'm in a hurry but I'm tired of seeing Estok explain himself for things that are so obvious.

Thanks for the support. Sometimes I think there are a more people know what is going on but would rather say nothing. Because the structure of the forum intrinsically discourages negative comments. That is why when the CWP began no one actually said anything about the history of s/s as a team member even though there were comments when the project was almost breaking.


Judgement
One thing that should be very obvious and should be very clear, is that you do not need to be a good writer to be a good evaluator of a piece of writing. The ability to judge is often easier to develop than the ability to create. Therefore the arguments that 'if you can't write then don't judge others' work' is not valid. To judge and to create is two different kinds of skills. To design, however, requires judgement. Therefore, there is a logical difference between a 'writer' and a 'designer who use writing as the medium.'

CWP Post mortem

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Hn. A few points I would like to make:

- The collaborative story ended up looking like my writing because nobody else was actually creating new material to make the project progress. Nothing in the project's design has been 'mellowed by other, better writers' because there have effectively been no other writers. The current design doc is 66 pages long and I wrote all except 2 of those pages, and created all the characters. I refuse to cry 'mea culpa' for being the only one with a drive to get something done.

This is incorrect. The reason that there is 'no progress being made' from your perspective was because the design method we used cannot adaquetly justify the design choices without the scale being tipped. Since the beginning I have been fighting for an alternative design method, that is repeated rejected because of your inability to design in a structured, objective-oriented procedure. In the beginning, your design method was acceptable because I could design in either way. However, the 'progress' of the project had shown that your repeated, unjustisfied rejections of the ideas from the other members cannot be corrected until a new design approach is adopted. On the verge of adopting that new design method, you used the seeming difference in story objective to avoid a group voting. Before the voting could take place, you broke off from the project. In your eyes you were the only one doing anything, because the ideas of the other members meant nothing to you. Of course you 'created' all of the characters, because you reject all of the rest. Remember the character 5min created since the beginning? Remember those techno characters created afterwards? Why weren't they in the design? Why weren't they even discussed? This argument is not new. I had already said it several times during the project.

Quote: - I am still waiting to hear what is unrealistic about my character relations. As for the animal traits and the BDSM, I will reiterate that it is my opinion as a writer that they do deliver the message. I would even say that, since one of Xenallure's design goals to provide a courtable character for every player's taste, we could not achieve this goal without using some BDSM elements.

Note that I wasn't objecting the existence of BDSM. I was objecting the coincident of BDSM, animal traits, anime style, and the way you present them. All together it makes the design looks childish. At this moment I am not arguing that it does not fit your target audience, because your definition of mature audience is different.

Slowpid,

Quote: no shit, how could I be one of the good writers on the project if I'm not on the project....HOW?

It's pretty surprising that half your post seems to be based on me saying that you were on the xenallure project, since I never said that anywhere. I said you were not one of the better writers (based on your comment that there were better writers - and your *own* comment didn't even say 'on the xenallure project'), so I don't have a clue how you arrived at the conclusion that I mistook you for a team member. That's half your post gone to waste, right there.

Also, it's nice to go from criticising SnS for being a bad writer to suddenly 'liking' her writing - all in the space of two posts. Did your conscience get to you? You may claim you never called her a bad writer in the first place, but you've twice said that her story design skills were poor. Did you think good writers could live without story design skills? That it was all in the prose? Plus, your comment that 'there are better writers' out there.. what, you just wanted to let us know that SnS is not the #1 writer in the world? *Of course* that comment would be interpreted as SnS being a bad writer, especially since it comes right after your expression of 'hatred' for the project and her 'poor' story design skills.

Finally, the last part of your post seems to be about how people worship moderators and being weak for it. Well, I remember getting a rep penalty not too long ago from SnS for flaming her or something (don't remember the details). I'm not saying it because I'm proud of it, but because it should show you that even *that* small part of your post was wrong, and therefore was a waste of everyone's time. Pretty impressive considering that every word of it was obviously heartfelt.

Oh, and use paragraphs, please.

Estok,

Quote: The name suggests that it is the 'Xenoness' that is doing the attraction. What does that mean, it means that the characters and designs are supposed to be alien, strange, freaky.

Now listen, man... how did you manage to go from alien and strange to freaky? I'd say that's pretty revealing of your nature. You've simply made the wrong assumption that strangeness is creepy. And that's okay, but I sure don't hope that's an assumption you live by in your daily life. There are words for people who do, and most of them end with -phobe or -ist.

So *assuming* that you did not really mean to say that strangeness = freakiness, there is no oxymoron in the xenallure title, hence the allure part is very valid. And *therefore* - going back to the orignial point - your criticisms of the designs as being freaky can't really be anything but a subjective opinion taking the shape of a personal attack. Now, honestly, was that the intention or not?

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
how did you manage to go from alien and strange to freaky?

Alien means different. What is it that interest you about something that is different? What would you do to create interest in a piece of elements? One thing you can do is to create an emotional stir. In other words, introduce something that is odd from the player's eyes. Now, this is strangeness. 'Freakiness' is the intensified version of strangeness. If you consider strangeness being rather neutral, 'freakiness' is the emotion state that creates a barrier. This means that not only the element is different, but there is initial challenge to overcome.

Quote: So *assuming* that you did not really mean to say that strangeness = freakiness, there is no oxymoron in the xenallure title, hence the allure part is very valid.

There is also no oxymoron with using freaky quality to attract the player. The objection was that the designs were not freaky enough:

"I bought Xenallure thinking that it would be exciting to date characters with alternative sexuality and perspectives. But the design itself presents them in such a neutral, normal way that takes away the excitement. I feel as if I am in a biology class looking at slides of exotic animals but the professor wasn't enthusiastic about it."

Quote: And *therefore* - going back to the orignial point - your criticisms of the designs as being freaky can't really be anything but a subjective opinion taking the shape of a personal attack. Now, honestly, was that the intention or not?

There is a slight misunderstanding. I said that the designs were ugly. From the ugliness I assumed that the designers want to make them freaky. My argument was, if they were trying to be freaky, the designs were nowhere near freaky enough to create excitement. The designs were too normal. After that I came around and argued the same thing based on the design document, where it seems that one of the objectives of the design should indeed aim to introduce strangeness and freakiness to the elements. According to that, the designs were not satisfying it.

It was not a personal attack. In fact it was not the first time I said that the style was ugly. While in the CWP I already told her that we probably should do the concept arts ourselves. I don't think that the meaning of my statement kicked in back then. Also note that saying someones' design is ugly is not a personal attack. Since when can't you grade someone else' work with a grade less than an A? There is a difference between a subjective opinion and a personal attack. On top of that I don't think saying that the designs were ugly was a very subjective opinion. Also note that I am not talking about the artistic appeal of the drawings. I am talking about the designs. I was attacking designs flaws that cannot be offset by artistic skills.

Quote: Alien means different. What is it that interest you about something that is different?

Alien does indeed mean different. I'm not saying that 'different' automatically piques my interest, but that it does not automatically strike me as freaky. And it shouldn't.

Quote: 'Freakiness' is the intensified version of strangeness.

Strange and exotic are no further apart than strange and freaky, and you're the only one to have put the 'freaky' label on anything. The game is Xenallure, not Xenafreaks. It was obvious that the game revolves around characters meant to be alluring in one way or another. My point is that you knew from the beginning they were not meant to be freaky.

Quote: Also note that saying someones' design is ugly is not a personal attack.

Oh, right. And saying that you are ugly (for the sake of example) is also not a personal attack... because since when can't you grade someone else's looks with a grade less than an A, right? Of course it's a personal attack to call someone else's work ugly. There's tactful and then there's tactless.

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
Alien does indeed mean different. I'm not saying that 'different' automatically piques my interest, but that it does not automatically strike me as freaky. And it shouldn't.

I already said that it is not an automatic connection. I said making them freaky is adding additional incentive. It is like an upgrade from being a mystery story to horror to thriller (or in other intensity scale of your choice).

Quote: Strange and exotic are no further apart than strange and freaky, and you're the only one to have put the 'freaky' label on anything.

Think about it this way:

"I find the designs in Xenallure not exotic."
"I find the designs in Xenallure strange."
"I find the designs in Xenallure freaky."
"I find the designs in Xenallure thrilling."


Don't you think that 'strange' is too neutral? Don't you think that it would probably work better if you can engage the expectation of the player further by making it freaky, exotic, thrilling? (To me freaky has not much bad connotation, it basically means 'remarkably strange', such that when you look at it, you go 'wooo, hell yeah it is freaky'.

Now the question is, do you believe that Xenallure should have the 'push the limit' or 'taste the forbidden fruit' tone embedded in the design. If your answer is yes, than being 'freaky' is a selling point. Because it stresses the player to wonder, 'is this right? is this wrong? is it too far? what are the perspectives?' If you don't make them freaky you don't get the same intense effect.

If your answer is no, then compare two designs where one of them is strikingly freaky, and another one is just being different. Which one do you think creates a stronger attraction?

The designers can certain anchor the design to be 'strange' only. Don't you think that players who find it 'freaky' will still be attracted because of the very fact that they haven't tried it?

Quote: The game is Xenallure, not Xenafreaks. It was obvious that the game revolves around characters meant to be alluring in one way or another. My point is that you knew from the beginning they were not meant to be freaky.

You substitude the wrong word. My argument is that I don't see anything wrong with creating the game Freakallure. They are freaky and they are attractive. I think you are reading only the 'driving people away' part of the word 'freak'.

Freakallure Example:
Take your garden variety of occupations, and turn all of them into datable freaks. Isn't this instant funness? Isn't it for the simplar reason why some people would play 'The Sims'? (Note: The 'freaks' I was referring to for Xenallure are not this shallow.)

Quote:

Quote: Also note that saying someones' design is ugly is not a personal attack.

Oh, right. And saying that you are ugly (for the sake of example) is also not a personal attack...

Your example is invalid because a person's face is in general not based on rational decisions. A design is a set of decisions. The association you made suck like hell. You think this is a personal attack? It never occurs to you that maybe you could say, 'man, it does!'? This is the exact reason why 'YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS' got outdated. Because people cannot distinguish between attacks on attributes and associations.

When you are playing chess, you made a stupid move, there is nothing personal when people say, 'that is such a stupid move.' Why is this more acceptable in chess but not in designs? because there are in general no fixed rules to evaluate the decisions. It is like playing chess with no rules. Just because of this, are you justisfied to say that now no one can call anyone else's move stupid? It is true that different people have different logics to evaluate the moves, but why is it suddenly bad to say, 'your logics don't make any sense'? Am I saying that, "damn, you only have the IQ of a 4 year old"? No. Judgement is a skill that can be improved, just like chess. There are good moves, there are stupid moves. It is not a personal attack. Are you using the right thinking tools to look at them? Are you rejecting learning new tools?



because since when can't you grade someone else's looks with a grade less than an A, right? Of course it's a personal attack to call someone else's work ugly. There's tactful and then there's tactless.