I am not sure whether you are talking to s/s or me, but such contrast is used in Cryo.

Shamila - The kind, loving, gentle healer being the successor of a heritage of chaos, aggression and destruction (the Cincra is historically the invaders, with their power to destroy exemplified by the wyruka.)

Frequency - The aggressive impulsive law breaker as the successor of the systematic, structural and defensive past (the hierarchical TaraSuh Templars).

Krystal - The annoying, demanding, and noisy kid who swallowed all the tears of the sacrifice of the past.

Gillieon - The sensitive, perceptive, intuitional equal of humanility from the heritage of emotionless clockwork.

estok, Im trying to follow all your posts but am getting confused by the fighting in the middle. Can you open a new thread and repost what you have?

This is from the clothing thread, but I figured I would reply to it here rather than drag that one down into argument too.

Quote: Original post by Estok
Bonus response: If you don't want the player to look deep into the clothings, then make the clothings look nice. There is no hidden meaning in the statement. I mean that the current designs are ugly, that is why I am asking for semantic justifications (If it is ugly, maybe you can like it because it is smart). It seems obvious that the characters are designed to creep the hell out of the players as part of the 'xenoness'. You see a horror movie because it scares you. You play Xenallure because you get to date freaks. If you think about it this way, the standards can be rather low. The plots and the worldbuildings don't even need to make sense, players will still play it for because it is freaky. This is not exactly the objective of Xenallure since it has too much dull stuffs that aren't freaky, but it is a practical game design goal. If you find this more interesting you still have time to change, or advertise more on the freakiness of the design.

Ah, now we come to the crux of the issue, the real reason behind all the fighting. My taste bothers you. "It seems obvious that the characters are designed to creep the hell out of the players..." Nope Estok, it's just you. From my POV the characters are designed to be interesting and appealing, definitely not freaky or creepy. All of the teammembers currently working on the project like and identify with the characters. Maybe it weirds you out, but hermaphrodites are people too. Most people think cat ears and tails are sexy, and a lot of people have told me they love my clothing designs. Dominance and submission are fundamental to understanding group dynamics, such as why some kinds of people are leaders and others are followers, and you will never understand the full range of human psychology as long as you reject BDSM as unsuitable to be included in the mature, real world. If you attack my design because you dislike elements you consider to be 'too intense', that's just as "out-of-context and ridiculous", to use your own words, as me criticising your design for being about war.

Lol, no wonder you were unhappy with the collaborative story having a moral of open-mindedness and aren't a science fiction fan - deep down you are a xenophobe! Well, that's fine. That removes you completely from my target audience and you from mine, an excellent reason for me not to waste my time anymore trying fruitlessly to explain my design to you, or critiquing one of your designs.

Didn't catch this the first time around, but

Quote: Bonus response: If you don't want the player to look deep into the clothings, then make the clothings look nice. There is no hidden meaning in the statement. I mean that the current designs are ugly, that is why I am asking for semantic justifications

Dude, for someone who has hitherto gone for the cold, objective, logical, argumentative style, and methodically pointing out flaws in the counter-arguments, it seems like you just blew a fuse here and lost all patience. I actually preferred the other Estok.

Freaks
You completely missed the meaning of my post. The name of 'Xenallure' means alien attraction. Alien correspond to differences. What is the point of calling them aliens if you are just trying to appeal to the audience already in that group? It won't be very alien to them would it? The name of the game suggests that the targeted audience is supposed to be those who have not seen the issues and characters of the game as 'normal'. In other words, it IS supposed to target those who at first see the characters as freaks, but are willing to learn and understand them. (What is the point of calling a game to present openmind when all the audience you want to target already believe in that issue?)

You read non-existent prejudice in my posts. The content does not creep me out, although I believe that you should focus on presenting them as freaks as a first impression. It is logical to present them as freaks so that the openmind of the player is actually put to test. After the players overcome the initial barrier and learn about them, the players will be rewarded with deeper understandings about the freakiness of the settings and the characters. This is the same technique as presenting a protagonist as an antagonist, to drive the objective thinking process of the player.

You go see a horror movie because it is scary.
You go to the amusement park and ride on the rollercoaster because it gives you the thrill.
You play Xenallure because you get to date aliens that are freaky, and gives you the thrill. (This is in your design document. I am not arguing it out of the blue. Don't start shooting yourself on your foot. In a nutshell this is supposed to be a stranger in a strange world scenario. And you were saying that audience who sees the strange world strange are not welcomed. That doesn't make sense. If you are just making the game for those already accustomed to it, you might as well call it Homeallure.)



Other things you read wrong:

Quote: Most people think cat ears and tails are sexy, and a lot of people have told me they love my clothing designs.

I did not deny the fact that people think animal traits are sexy. I said those people have a skewed view based on an addiction they may not understand. If you think about it, the underlying principle has nothing different from guys who just like bigger breasts. Call it one way this is pornography, meaningness sensual intensification. Are there people who find it sexy? You don't need to ask me. Am I condeming pornography? No. Do mature audience know that they are reading porn when they read it? Yes. Then what do you call those audience that don't know it when they read it? Immature audience.

Quote: Dominance and submission are fundamental to understanding group dynamics, such as why some kinds of people are leaders and others are followers, and you will never understand the full range of human psychology as long as you reject BDSM as unsuitable to be included in the mature, real world.

You got my post wrong. In the original post, I said that your design makes me think that you are not targeting mature audience, because the way you coincide Animal Traits, Anime style, and BDSM resembles a class of trite works that target immature audience (as classified above). What this means is that there are implementations with Animal Traits, Anime style, and BDSM, separate or combined, that targets mature audience.

Quote: If you attack my design because you dislike elements you consider to be 'too intense', that's just as "out-of-context and ridiculous", to use your own words, as me criticising your design for being about war.

Your assumption is incorrect, I didn't target your design because I dislike the elements. I target your design because there are discrepancies between your own objectives and implementations. For example you could have declared that you want to make a porn game and I won't attact the fact that the traits of the characters are meaninglessly intensified. (Again, don't read this wrong, I am not saying Xenallure is porn game. Don't let your subconscious associations permeate) Also note that after you clarified on your targeted audience, I have not go back and attack your target group.

There are many situations when I attack something, you defend strongly even though you don't need to. Sometimes I shoot an arrow that is supposed to miss, you would still jump over to block it, thinking that if you don't block it it shows a weakness in your design. What happens however, is that when you jump over to block it, you actually get hit. I think you don't know the boundary of your own design. As you got hit by the unnecessary arrows, your lack of rational defenses let the unnecessary ideas permeate in your design.

Quote: Lol, no wonder you were unhappy with the collaborative story having a moral of open-mindedness and aren't a science fiction fan - deep down you are a xenophobe!

This is incorrect, I was not unhappy with having a moral of open-mind, and I am not a science fiction fan. I probably am not a fan of anything. If you recall project, it was me who anchored the discussion about presenting open-mindedness in the story. You were the one with the closed-mind that could not understand and accept the views behind sacrifice and pain as vital elements for presenting certain ideas. Note that the argument that you have an open-mind because you accept the ideas of including homosexuals, etc... is invalid because those ideas were from you and you are already addicted. It is like asking whether an addict has an open-mind about marijuana.

Quote: Well, that's fine. That removes you completely from my target audience and you from mine, an excellent reason for me not to waste my time anymore trying fruitlessly to explain my design to you, or critiquing one of your designs.

This shows a serious logic flaw. I think I have showed you many times that an evaluator does not need to like a design personally to comment on it objectively. My inclination has no effect on the comments. I don't need to be part of your target audience to critique your design. (This statement says nothing about whether I like your design or whether I am part of your target audience.) If you keep on thinking that I attack your design because I don't like it myself, I have told you that that is not what I am doing, and I have showed you the logics behind the attacks. If you still persist thinking that way it shows your closed-mindedness about the discussions.

[Edited by - Estok on April 12, 2005 6:29:13 PM]

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
Didn't catch this the first time around, but

Quote: Bonus response: If you don't want the player to look deep into the clothings, then make the clothings look nice. There is no hidden meaning in the statement. I mean that the current designs are ugly, that is why I am asking for semantic justifications

Dude, for someone who has hitherto gone for the cold, objective, logical, argumentative style, and methodically pointing out flaws in the counter-arguments, it seems like you just blew a fuse here and lost all patience. I actually preferred the other Estok.

I have to dig up the old line again. You read it wrong.

How could you say that saying a design 'ugly' is blowing a fuse? Ugliness is juat a label, the same as 'freakiness'. There are times when you want your design to look ugly. These words are like mines to the common eyes. But I hope you would get used to it. If you want to know the longer version that says the same thing, here it is:

"Your design has achieved an adaquet level in inducing sensual rejection in the player to create an initial challenge that the player must overcome in a meta-gameplay level in order to receive the semantic rewards of the story."

So the question was indeed whether this effect was intentional.

In addition, I have already given the reason why the designs were ugly, such as the use of shapes that accidentally resemble something else in real life, and incoherence among elements for the same character appearance. In conclusion, the carelessness of the designs or mis-designs resulted in ugly designs.

But I guess I still can't say 'your designs are ugly' even as a summary statement. It just stands out so much even though it was logically supported.

Quote: How could you say that saying a design 'ugly' is blowing a fuse?

Because up until now, you've been trying to hide your personal distaste for the project and your personal dislike for, ahem, the involved people, behind pretty and objective words. The moment you used 'ugly', it became obvious that the real 'you' just couldn't stand to sit and hide behind phrases like 'logical flaw' or 'you misread my statement'. You finally had to come out and say what has been bothering you the whole time. I guess 'blowing a fuse' was the wrong expression - maybe 'coming out of the closet' would have been better.

(Freud could probably explain it better, had he delved into studying group dynamics for game design.)

Quote: Ugliness is juat a label, the same as 'freakiness'. There are times when you want your design to look ugly.

Yes, but you knew that these designs were not meant to be. It's all in the 'allure' part of the title, and you were even part of the development. You knew.

Come on, Estok, why all the subterfuge? Be direct. Let it all out. Tell us how you really feel.

As more people join their argument it seems that some of this is about xenallure. I'm not sure about this, as someone who watched the project get structured and even 'almost' posted a few times, the problem I had, and possibly Estok also(although there is no way to say that it is true at all so dont assume this is how he feels) is angry...It's no coincidence that the story contains all the 'niche' writting and such that Sunandshadow uses in her own personal stories. The modertor has a certain amount of control and respect outright because of their position....what I saw as bias'ing peoples thinking about how the game was shaped. In my opinion it became a forum for Sunandshadow to create her own game and get feedback and attention towards ideas that she does not otherwise really get with her own writting, mainly on the subject of the use of romance, slight BDSM and animal characteristics; all of which Sunandshadow uses without caution in her work. Im not saying that it was Sunandshadows intention to do this, all I am saying is that there are influencing, conscious and un-counsious characteristics of her position as the moderator in the writing forum that led to a story that can be directly linked with all her writing....the line, if you dont know or cant plainly see, is a correlation between the poor story design (that is attempting to deliver the 'message' while using traits that dont fit, but forcing them anyways because you like them and just want to use them.) and her own bad writing structure.

I dont like the xenallure project, in fact, I hate it. I think that is ill concieved and based on Sunandshadows poor story design mellowed slightly by the fact there are other, and better writers, who put in their two cents every once in a while and things average out to bad, but not as bad as could be. Sunandshadow admits that he writing is 'niche' writing....who wants to go through all the work of pulling a game together when the result will be a lump of a game with a small target audience. When Estok says "It is logical to present them as freaks so that the openmind of the player is actually put to test. After the players overcome the initial barrier and learn about them, the players will be rewarded with deeper understandings about the freakiness of the settings and the characters. This is the same technique as presenting a protagonist as an antagonist, to drive the objective thinking process of the player." Its not because he's mean or something, he understands that the 'message and origional design' are not being acheived by the elements because Sunandshadow threw in her personal favorites (animal traits, BDSM and such) that do not help the mission, it hurts it, but its their simply because she wants it to be, force fitting never results in delicate results that stories are going to require. You already have tons of back up for the game in this forum, maybe even in this site, because it origionated from here, thats called bias and therefore even if people here like it is not nessecarily a good idea.

forgive my grammer and spelling, I'm in a hurry but I'm tired of seeing Estok explain himself for things that are so obvious.

Quote: I dont like the xenallure project, in fact, I hate it. I think that is ill concieved and based on Sunandshadows poor story design mellowed slightly by the fact there are other, and better writers

And dude, you're not one of them.

I just wasted a couple of minutes (give/take 30 seconds due to the poster apparently missing an Enter button) reading a post about a personal opinion which belongs neither here nor there.

We've just witnessed a poster who has the writing abilities inferior to that of a slice of bacon, blasting a well-documented idea, based on..

.. um..

.. nothing.

Try pointing out *where* the writing abilities reveal themselves as being poor, for example. Ooh, I'd love to see that. A piece of bacon versus a moderator. Ooh.

funny. But there you go, "A piece of bacon versus a moderator", good job for proving my point, no matter what she does your still gonna consider her a 'moderator' and therefore her opinion will influence you more then others. At no point have I EVER claimed to be a good writer, and at no point have I ever said that Sunandshadow was a bad writer, in fact, earlier the words I think I used were "use your style and voice (which is your strength)" - in fact, those are the exact words I used because SaS's writing is great, its really good; however the thing that I dont like is niche writers, thats a personal opinion, just like the last post. I think SaS brought her 'niche' writing to the game and being a mod surrounded by weak people such as yourself (or what you seem to be revealing anyways) her opinion came through loud and clear and above everyone elses.

"And dude, you're not one of them."................................no shit, how could I be one of the good writers on the project if I'm not on the project....HOW?


"We've just witnessed a poster who has the writing abilities inferior to that of a slice of bacon, blasting a well-documented idea, based on.."

Just because its documented does not make it a good idea.

"Try pointing out *where* the writing abilities reveal themselves as being poor, for example. Ooh, I'd love to see that. A piece of bacon versus a moderator. Ooh."

Done...already...thanks. - "poor story design (that is attempting to deliver the 'message' while using traits that dont fit, but forcing them anyways because you like them and just want to use them" - from my last post.

you said "personal opinion which belongs neither here nor there"...but first you said "Let it all out. Tell us how you really feel." - Now, I know you are talking to Estok but the fact that you asked for his opinion means that if I was going to give it this indeed would be the place.


Look, im not sure where you get off saying that I have writing skills paramount to a slice of bacon and I'm not gonna say it doesn't bother me, it does. However I'm gonna talk solice in the fact that you missed almost everything I said in my post and contradicted yourself...I will chalk my bacon'esque writing skills up to your potato'esque reading and thinking ablilties. I dont appreciate that you said i'm not one of the good writers on the xenallure project....im not on the xenallure project, iv'e never written anything for it and never put in any amount of help....sorry if this hurts your point but you seem to be making the repeated mistake of taking jabs at non-existent or pertinent parts of me, and for some reason its bothersome.

A Freudian huh? That might explain alot, seems like your missing some of Abraham Maslow's B-needs. You should read up on metamotivational psychology, maybe you'll understand your need to trash someone with no basis. (Thats all a joke, dont go attacking me on my psychology now please.)

Finally, the reason I posted is not because I wanted to tell everyone how much I hate Xenallure.

In the beginning I thought that Estok was being hard headed and SunandShadow was being honest. Both true. Eventually though Sunandshadows comments made her sound a bit conceded and since Cryo...in my opinion...is a better game then Xenallure I got tired of Sunandshadow trying to redirect his opinions with her own thinking, like slamming him for using war because it does not fall in the miniscule range of the story elements she likes to use. I dislike ethnocentric people, Sunandshadow is one when it comes writing; thats my opinion, I dont know all the facts, only what I read.

I would tell you that it is bad manners to insult people when you have no grounds, but you may have your reasons which would make me feel hypocritical in hindsight because Sunandshadow will be reading this and will probably think that 1.) I am and ignorant asshole, and 2.) have no basis off which to base my conclusions. To that I say;

Sunandshadow; 1.) I am an ignorant asshole. 2.) I do like your writing, you have good voice and your not afraid to approach sensitive areas. You said yourself you are a niche writer and you dont mind being one, most of these comments stem from that so dont take offense, its a difference of opinion. Your style is the best I have read outside of professional authors (some of them anyways.)