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Original post by solinear Quote: Original post by Ned_K Quote: Original post by bronco123 Duck, strike, turn, get that arrow in a vital point, ect ect. Yes this requires people to twitch occasionally, as in a FPS but it beats mindlesses watching the computer fight itself. Agree. Yeah, this is in my "If I don't want anyone to play my game" list of things to do. Maybe I was targeting my MMOG at 14-24 year olds. But if you want an MMOG to succeed, you have to target it at your longer-term players. That means the 25-39 market. If I had a choice between having 10 18 year olds play my game for 2 months straight and 4 34 year olds play my game for 2 months, I'd take the 34 year olds. Why? Because the 25-39 year olds will keep playing for another 2 years. The 18 year olds are going to drop off in 6-9 months (or less), or when the latest thing comes out (HL2, WoW, whatever). I'm not big on HL, Unreal or Quake. If I was going to play them I sure as f*ck wouldn't play them in a MMO setting. I hate dying without seeing my opponent as it is. It presupposes some lack of skill in the game. If you get first shot, you probably win. If you can click and twitch faster than I can, then you win. My brains don't even factor into it. I'm ROLE-PLAYING. If I wanted to role-play a 33-year old computer network admin/game developer with a quick wit, but relatively slow reflexes and a twisted ankle, I guess I'd get off my damn computer, wouldn't I? I like the idea of playing the Ranger with quick reflexes, good intuition and the ability to take more than 1 hit from a BFG. Not to mention that you'd have to make NPCs based around the whole 'click and twitch' mentality and when you get to the higher end game, you'd end up with NPCs who you could only beat with 6 PCs on 1 NPC, simply because their reflexes would be based upon having 4GB of RAM and two 3Ghz processors. I'm pretty sure that no matter how fast you *think* you are, I can make a computer program that will ALWAYS be behind you and will always kill the healer first.

Notice that we weren't talking about making the game a FPS or about making it 100% twitch. Notice the use of the word "occasionally." There IS an in-between realm where the game isn't a geriatric snoozefest and also isn't a mindless shooter.

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Notice that we weren't talking about making the game a FPS or about making it 100% twitch. Notice the use of the word "occasionally." There IS an in-between realm where the game isn't a geriatric snoozefest and also isn't a mindless shooter.

I'd hardly call online FPS play mindless, far from it - it's highly tactical at high levels and requires both twitch skill and extremely fine strategic abilities. All-on-all Deathmatch is perhaps not as tactical, but if you've ever played FLF (or any of a variety of squad based mods) you wouldn't talk about them being mindless.

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I'm not big on HL, Unreal or Quake. If I was going to play them I sure as f*ck wouldn't play them in a MMO setting. I hate dying without seeing my opponent as it is. It presupposes some lack of skill in the game. If you get first shot, you probably win. If you can click and twitch faster than I can, then you win. My brains don't even factor into it.

:) If you're being shot so easily then you *do* lack the skills.
Perhaps it's not your cup of tea (fair enough) but to put it down based on your inability is a little silly no? What if you were piloting a vehicle in a squad of tanks so you're not shot so easily and have to use real tactics based on armour strengths, turning circles etc? Would that be more interesting for you?

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Not to mention that you'd have to make NPCs based around the whole 'click and twitch' mentality and when you get to the higher end game, you'd end up with NPCs who you could only beat with 6 PCs on 1 NPC, simply because their reflexes would be based upon having 4GB of RAM and two 3Ghz processors. I'm pretty sure that no matter how fast you *think* you are, I can make a computer program that will ALWAYS be behind you and will always kill the healer first.

Actually, I think that would be an argument for *more* tactical and strategic play. You'd need to have people hiding in the trees/bushes and actually *defending* the healer using tactics rather than standing around in a group and trying to 'pull' the mobs.

Planetside had a great opportunity as MMOFPS, but it was still missing something for me, I wish I could positively identify it rather than hand-wavingly saying 'lack of world changing' 'poor balance'.

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Original post by JuNC Quote: Notice that we weren't talking about making the game a FPS or about making it 100% twitch. Notice the use of the word "occasionally." There IS an in-between realm where the game isn't a geriatric snoozefest and also isn't a mindless shooter. I'd hardly call online FPS play mindless, far from it - it's highly tactical at high levels and requires both twitch skill and extremely fine strategic abilities. All-on-all Deathmatch is perhaps not as tactical, but if you've ever played FLF (or any of a variety of squad based mods) you wouldn't talk about them being mindless.

I didn't refer to all shooters as mindless, though some certainly can be. I was making a point, not unrelated to the one you just tried to make with me, that the original poster was misrepresenting "twitch" games in his comments on my (and another poster's) previous posts on this topic. That said, the type of highly tactical squad based shooter, where you actually have a squad to play with AND the skill to transcend the "mindless" aspect, is very rare. For most of the people out there, the reason shooters seem so boring is precisely because the type of play you describe never materializes. I understand the gameplay you are describing perfectly. But it's a rare manifestation at best except among the hardcore gaming culture and even then is hard to organize properly and to execute with enough skill for it to rise above just running around and shooting stuff. Netvoice, some headsets and the players communicating, while facilitating the cooperative aspect, don't always result in true tactical or strategic play.

[Edited by - Ned_K on November 21, 2004 2:10:28 PM]

My biggest complaint is the lack of respect they have for a player's real life. Anyone who worked on trade skills in Dark Age of Camelot should know what I mean.

Click.. watch bar for 2 minutes.. You fail!... click...

No one would put up with that in a single player game.

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Original post by The 89 Vision My biggest complaint is the lack of respect they have for a player's real life. Anyone who worked on trade skills in Dark Age of Camelot should know what I mean. Click.. watch bar for 2 minutes.. You fail!... click... No one would put up with that in a single player game.

I agree that it seems some aspects of games (like the one's discussed in this thread) these days are simply made to waste time for "realism's" sake. A philosophy that simply makes the game boring.

I do not like MMORPGs. I prefer single-player turnbae console RPGs. Ya Dig?

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I'd hardly call online FPS play mindless

Nobody called FPS play mindless. It simply requires a mindset that I don't have. Stick me out in the woods with a paintgun and I'll plaster you, but on a computer the reactions and tactics are completely different and to a certain amount unrealistic. I was in the Army and while "America's Army" was probably one of the best FPS style games, it still lacked a bunch of the necessary aspects to make an FPS game realistic. I will admit though, it was almost eery how realistic the sounds were. After shooting the M-16, I was waiting to smell the gunsmoke.

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Perhaps it's not your cup of tea (fair enough) but to put it down based on your inability is a little silly no?

I didn't put it down. Maybe you inferred something that wasn't implied. I simply think that the mental skills required for FPS play aren't the ones that I really care to work on. I don't perform agility based tasks commonly in my day-to-day life. Want someone to fix your network fast? I'm your man. Want a solution to an infrastructure problem fast? I'm right there, but this is mental quickness and not your almost subconscious reaction time, it's based upon experience and knowledge. I want to work on things that are problem solving and more complex than an FPS allows for.

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I was making a point, not unrelated to the one you just tried to make with me, that the original poster was misrepresenting "twitch" games in his comments on my (and another poster's) previous posts on this topic.

No, I didn't make any representation on FPS games. It's unfortunate that you missed my point, which had nothing to do with FPS games and everything to do with the MMOG market and the people who play them long-term. They are getting on to middle age, don't like playing something for a 1/2 hour (FPS games are well suited to someone who wants a 'quick fix'), they want to engage in something that is captivating and will burn 3-4 hours of their evening.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to sneak up on the opponent, move around invis and get the first shot, but that's as much a matter of class balance as anything. You want to try for a critical shot? Cool, go for it, but you'll take penalties when compared to going after the 'big target' of the torso.

FPS style combat is an all or nothing kind of thing. You either put it in or you don't.

Just to be realistic though, if you're jumping, strafing and running, you're NOT shooting a bow, period. It looks great in the movies, but you're not hitting a damn thing. Bows are large and akward. The arrow doesn't exactly lock in place and if your arms are holding it in place and ready, then you just lost half your balance. If you're firing a bow at anything more than 25 meters, it gets harder and harder, particularly if you're not using recurve or pulleys, which are all relatively recent changes to bow technologies (and wouldn't have been available in the ancient world). You fire a bow when standing still or at least stable (firing from a horse took twice as long to reload and aim as standing). Reloading would be a nightmare if you just dove across the floor (and your arrows just flew out of the quiver).

However, my comments weren't about the realism of the situation. They were about the fact that your target market is not the same market as those who play MMOGs. Yes, there are a hundred things you can do to make them more exciting. Turning the combat into an FPS style event would completely kill your market share though. Sure, you might get a lot of younger players, but you'll lose the 'cash crop' of the more mature players.

[Edited by - solinear on November 25, 2004 8:32:04 AM]

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Nobody called FPS play mindless. It simply requires a mindset that I don't have. Stick me out in the woods with a paintgun and I'll plaster you, but on a computer the reactions and tactics are completely different and to a certain amount unrealistic. I was in the Army and while "America's Army" was probably one of the best FPS style games, it still lacked a bunch of the necessary aspects to make an FPS game realistic. I will admit though, it was almost eery how realistic the sounds were. After shooting the M-16, I was waiting to smell the gunsmoke.

Well the word mindless *was* used in that context but Ned cleared up he didn't mean all shooters. It is true that the tactics are different, but I don't think 'realism' is a particularly relevant point to make, who cares if a game is realistic if it's fun? So what if the tactics are different from the tactics you'd employ in real life (after all, in RL - you die, you're out, period), they can still be just as complex as those employed in real life, just of a different kind. The most limiting thing is probably you can't usefully look and shoot in different directions was this is what you were refering to as in 'being killed without seeing my killer'?

The point I was trying to make (possibly not that successfully :)) was that in order to not die, you have to use tactics (after all, in RL what would your tactics be against a sniper who you know is in the area but couldn't see him?). The difference in most FPSs is that you can charge into an area, die and come back for another go (although consider CS where this isn't the case).

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I didn't put it down. Maybe you inferred something that wasn't implied. I simply think that the mental skills required for FPS play aren't the ones that I really care to work on. I don't perform agility based tasks commonly in my day-to-day life. Want someone to fix your network fast? I'm your man. Want a solution to an infrastructure problem fast? I'm right there, but this is mental quickness and not your almost subconscious reaction time, it's based upon experience and knowledge. I want to work on things that are problem solving and more complex than an FPS allows for.

It did sound (to me) like you were putting down FPSs (in fact it sounded like you were *whining* about them because you didn't/couldn't play), I apologize if I took your words wrong.

I think perhaps if you got into a team oriented FPS you would change your position slightly and realise there is plenty of room for mental quickness (based on knowledge and experience - of the game) alongside the required reaction time. I too want to work on systems that allow for problem solving but this absolutely does not preclude FPS combat (your team may have to defend you while you perform some task, both generating interesting team dynamics and applying a time pressure). Planetside had this sort of dynamic, so does CS, although currently the problem solving aspect is fairly simplistic - e.g. placing a bomb in CS isn't my idea of a challenging problem, but you can imagine the extension of that to more complex problems.

Sure if you're trying to fire a bow you aren't going to be running around, strafing etc. However you should try playing some FPS in which the same is true for sniper rifles. The point being that it's the strategy (finding a good spot, perhaps getting friends to defend you etc.) rather than reaction times which determine the outcome.

I suspect you *have* done your market research and can give the reason people play EQ rather than Planetside (the only MMOFPS really worth mentioning), however currently I'd rather play EQ than Planetside too, simply because the RPG mechanics of Planetside are so limited (not that it was meant as an RPG particularly).

Perhaps the reason that 'older' people don't play them is that there are no good FPS MMORPGs in existence?

Also note I've known lots of 'oldies' who can happily play FPSs for five or six hours on end, anything but a 'quick fix'.

And if you haven't done your market research then you're very probably extrapolating from your own personal feelings which seems a little misguided.

Of course, it's entirely up to you what you want to work on, but consider there could quite easily be an untapped market for FPS MMORPGs, all it takes is someone with enough imagination and design ability to merge the genres (RPG/FPS) and take it to the masses.

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Original post by solinearNo, I didn't make any representation on FPS games. It's unfortunate that you missed my point, which had nothing to do with FPS games and everything to do with the MMOG market and the people who play them long-term. They are getting on to middle age, don't like playing something for a 1/2 hour (FPS games are well suited to someone who wants a 'quick fix'), they want to engage in something that is captivating and will burn 3-4 hours of their evening. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to sneak up on the opponent, move around invis and get the first shot, but that's as much a matter of class balance as anything. You want to try for a critical shot? Cool, go for it, but you'll take penalties when compared to going after the 'big target' of the torso. FPS style combat is an all or nothing kind of thing. You either put it in or you don't. Just to be realistic though, if you're jumping, strafing and running, you're NOT shooting a bow, period. It looks great in the movies, but you're not hitting a damn thing. Bows are large and akward. The arrow doesn't exactly lock in place and if your arms are holding it in place and ready, then you just lost half your balance. If you're firing a bow at anything more than 25 meters, it gets harder and harder, particularly if you're not using recurve or pulleys, which are all relatively recent changes to bow technologies (and wouldn't have been available in the ancient world). You fire a bow when standing still or at least stable (firing from a horse took twice as long to reload and aim as standing). Reloading would be a nightmare if you just dove across the floor (and your arrows just flew out of the quiver). However, my comments weren't about the realism of the situation. They were about the fact that your target market is not the same market as those who play MMOGs. Yes, there are a hundred things you can do to make them more exciting. Turning the combat into an FPS style event would completely kill your market share though. Sure, you might get a lot of younger players, but you'll lose the 'cash crop' of the more mature players.

See, you really don't understand what I was getting at. I despise FPS games. I've never liked them. I'm merely making a pitch for games that have more action than simply letting the computer run combat while the player toggles skills occasionally and decides when to run away or not run away. A game like Diablo 2 for example is certainly not a shooter by any stretch but you have to have SOME reflexes to play it.

Further, I feel it's a mistake to be locked in to absolute realism. You say this:

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If you're firing a bow at anything more than 25 meters, it gets harder and harder, particularly if you're not using recurve or pulleys, which are all relatively recent changes to bow technologies (and wouldn't have been available in the ancient world).

If you go for ABSOLUTE realism, as your comment seems to indicate, the game will most likely be boring. It's a game, you have liberty. It needs to be self-consistent. Realism is ONLY important as long as it makes the game more enjoyable. Realism at the sake of a good time doesn't make for an enjoyable game.

Biggest problem with MMORPG's is the last 3 letters in MMORPG, RPG.....

it should be almost a law that no matter what you do with an RPG someone won't be happy with lack of X feature, or Y gameplay design... in mmo's everyone wants big worlds, lots of houses, than when there is no houses they complain for more thereby making the world bigger, than complaints of less interaction due to too big a world

its a vicious cycle... and i don't think theres really a solution to it that makes more than 80% of all players completely content


i'd like to see a starcraft style mmo, interms of gameplay/speed/basic strategy, unit balance... with the ability to take form in a unit for FPS style combat...