Shogun used the 'disturbed birds' technique to show hidden units.
I would also like to think that critters could be mistaken for
enemies. Imagine you're walking through the jungle when you hear a rustle off to the left and the nearly imperceptable movement undergrowth and shadows. Is it the enemy or a critter? Do you shoot first and give your position away or wait and risk being jumped?

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Original post by Sandman I'm basically thinking along the lines of comparing the proximity and stealth level of the unit with the 'morale' of the bird. A tank racing at full pelt will cause the birds to take flight from miles away, whereas the stealthier unit might not surprise it until he's right on top of it...

I strongly recommend making stealthy units pass right through them and not even reveal them to the player. Birds I would think should be either an accident or intentional strategy, and shouldn't be disturbed but by large units or significant presence. Otherwise, the drift into background. If you want them to be advance warning, they can't be too easily spooked or like an alarm triggered too often, they become ignored.

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As it is, they don't really provide that much clear information, in terms of what triggered them and where that thing is. They really just provide a hint: There's something lurking in that wood, or something is creeping through that long grass. It's then up to the observing player to decide how to deal with it. Redistribute his forces to cope with a possible threat from that direction? Redirect his artillery at that point? Launch an airstrike?

I don't mind them being a general warning, I think that's perfect. I just think it should be significant, such as mechanized units or a large infantry force.

If it could happen with any unit, I might send a sentry, but I'd be more likely to rely on other intel methods the game allows. But if it was only with a large force I'd both be very careful on attack and very attentive on defense.

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Fog of war doesn't make much sense in a high tech setting IMHO. [smile]

I know this is a separate discussion, but what about camoflague and any sensor disruption? Of course, it depends on how high tech you're talking.

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One possible answer, is that herds could also be tied to native groups, and so by shooting up their animals you invoke their anger. Whether this is a sufficiently compelling reason to let the herds wander freely around your mission critical objectives, is another matter.

This could work. You might add a bit of a ratings system, where players who kill the animals are less likely to be helped by the natives and more likely to be lied to and misdirected.

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I was worried enough about putting predators in at all! My concern is that if predators are too dangerous, players will spend a disproportionate amount of time and effort worrying about predators compared to how much time he spends worrying about his opponent.

Well, you could look at this like the tornados and sandworms in the Dune games, and use them to your advantage. [smile]

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I did consider a sort of subclass of 'super predator' - really big scary things that can inflict some pretty serious damage, even to some vehicles. However, I'm not yet convinced that they're a good idea...

This could always be a map option depending on the territory the players are playing in. But if they're in, the player will need to be able to do more than just kill them, or they'll be a nuisance.

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Yes. I'm not quite sure exactly how to implement this interaction though. I was thinking that it would need to be fairly simple, such as getting an infantry unit close to some natives and the friendly natives would just give you whatever information they felt like - this could be random, or it could be based on exactly how much they like you compared to your opponents (or even how threatening you are?) or they could just tell you everything they know.

How about a diplomat or liaison unit, which generates good will when parked in a village. You could have a couple of varieties, maybe standard and advanced. The longer the unit spends in the village, the more likely the village is to help: At first, maybe they tolerate you; then they tell you about dangers; then they tell you about nearby troops, maybe for a fee; finally, they hide your troops and always misdirect your enemy.

Depending on how your expansion model works, bribing natives could be an alternative to setting up alternate basis, kind of a strategy that works in tandem and provides strategic interest. Do you spend the time to raze the villages, or do you constantly raid them and make them enemies, or do you build them up in lieu of expanding? Or do you ignore them and hope your enemy is doing the same?

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Original post by Wavinator I strongly recommend making stealthy units pass right through them and not even reveal them to the player. Birds I would think should be either an accident or intentional strategy, and shouldn't be disturbed but by large units or significant presence. Otherwise, the drift into background. If you want them to be advance warning, they can't be too easily spooked or like an alarm triggered too often, they become ignored.

I'm not sure I really mind if this happens - I'm inclined to leave the choice about whether to ignore the birds or react to them up to the player.

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I don't mind them being a general warning, I think that's perfect. I just think it should be significant, such as mechanized units or a large infantry force.

The thing is, larger units like vehicles, are perfectly capable of giving themselves away without the help of birds. If you can see what triggered them, then you've nothing to worry about. The only time you need to worry about it is when you can't see what triggered them.

In any case, I think a small dose of realism in the approach might help. Birds nesting in trees derive a certain amount of safety from that. They can see potential threats from much further away due to their vantage point, but they are less likely to spook at things. They'd probably just ignore most infantry units.

Birds on the ground on the other hand, might not worry about your units until they get closer, but they are relatively easily spooked.

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I know this is a separate discussion, but what about camoflague and any sensor disruption? Of course, it depends on how high tech you're talking.

Units can be hidden, but the vast majority of buildings and terrain can't. The terrain is known and accurately mapped out, and anything capable of changing the terrain would be easily visible. Similarly, the vast majority of buildings are too big to hide, and their positions will be known at the start of the game anyway. They aren't going to move, and anything capable of desroying them will make a huge signal.

The only exceptions will be a few smaller buildings, some of which might be built by infantry units during the game, such as trenches or camoflaged bivouacs. These will be treated like units for visibility - not shown until one of your units is capable of spotting them.

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Well, you could look at this like the tornados and sandworms in the Dune games, and use them to your advantage.

Hmm. I only briefly played Emporer: Battle for Dune, and I found the tornadoes and worms rather annoying, so I turned them off. What strategies were available to exploit these?

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Original post by tonyg Shogun used the 'disturbed birds' technique to show hidden units. I would also like to think that critters could be mistaken for enemies. Imagine you're walking through the jungle when you hear a rustle off to the left and the nearly imperceptable movement undergrowth and shadows. Is it the enemy or a critter? Do you shoot first and give your position away or wait and risk being jumped?

I like the idea of predators making you risk giving your position away... it actually kind of justifies their existence as more than just a nuisance.