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Original post by RuneLancer
You DO realize that an RPG isn't meant to be a one-time play-through thing? Or were you being sarcastic? Your post seems to drip with it on that point, but your tone is too serious. I'm not sure I understand.

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Yeah, it pretty much is meant to be a one-time play-through thing. And BTW, thanks for giving me a list of things that are less important than replay value, it really shows you read my reply (there's the sarcasm).

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RPGs like FF don't have good replay value? You're complaining about games not having good replay value, yet you also complain about not being able to go through the game in one go and casting it aside afterwards? Something's SERIOUSLY wrong with that train of thought, buddy... :/

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FF doesn't have good replay value. If you play them over and over again, that's despite the fact that they have bad replay value, not because they have good replay value. Want to disagree? Well let's make a little list mmkay? What are you more likely to play a 4th time all the way through than FF?

A sports game
A fighting game
A driving game
A puzzle game
An adventure game (maybe..)
A flight simulator
A strategy game (maybe..)

Looks like FF is pretty shitty on the replay value factor doesn't it?

PS: Where have i ever complained about games having bad replay value?

[edited by - tieTYT on April 10, 2004 4:30:43 PM]

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Original post by TechnoGoth
Beside I don't know a single game that stops you from getting the ultimate items at anytime in the endgame phase.

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There are many. Maybe even the majority of recent RPGs have this quality. FFIII for a not-so-recent example makes it possible to not get characters in your party. I think it also lets you miss the strongest esper/sword if i remember correctly. Dragon Warrior 6 lets you miss a party member entirely if you happen to choose the wrong answer to a yes or no question.



[edited by - tieTYT on April 10, 2004 4:31:50 PM]

I hope you realize that these one-time secrets are meant to add to the replay value by giving you a new set of things to find the second time you play through. An RPG is supposed to be a rather massive (relatively-speaking) game big enough for you not to memorize every aspect of the storyline in one play. Ever been around for the SNES era of RPGs? Most of the best-sellers had a number of paths here and there that WERE one-time events and DID affect further events.

I hardly see a point in debating this with you; you hardly have any understanding of RPGs and your arguments are rather ridiculous.

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Let''s not fool ourselves, RPGs like FF don''t have good replay value. If you''re playing for 30 hours and you realize that not only did you miss the coolest thing in the game, but you''ll have to start over again to get it, that is a bad design.

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Not only do you claim RPGs have bad replay value, you claim having a reason to play through them again is bad design. Make up your mind.

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tieTYT
You do also realize there are peopple that buy a game and plan to only play it once because they''re not 14 years old and have a job / college every day.

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For what it''s worth, I am a college student. Thus, I live on a tight budget. Thus, I only buy games that I will be able to get many hours of enjoyment out of. Thus, I only buy games that give me a reason to play them more than once. Might be different once I have a job, but I doubt it, because I''ve learned the value of a dollar and have no want to waste money on games that I will not enjoy the fourth time through.

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You want to make a billion hidden things throughout the game that the player can only get once, that''s fine by me. But if you make any of them the coolest spell or weapon or a playable character, then you piss off a lot of people that only have enough time to play the game one time.

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Only if it''s something time consuming and/or arbitrary (see most of the crap you have to do for the ultimate weapons in FFX).

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Who cares if the second run isn''t that new. This is a RPG not a fighting game. If you''re buying a RPG for the expected replay value, you''re expecting it from the wrong genre. If you want to think about the good qualities of a RPG, replay value is very near the bottom. And if you disagree, please give me a list of qualities a RPG can have that replay value is more important than.

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Um... basically any quality I''d like to see in an RPG is directly related to giving it more replay value. Some examples

- Interesting world/characters/story (in that order of importance). Of course, I''m also the sort who likes to read books and watch movies that I enjoy more than once. (I still get shivers when I hear Locke''s or Rachel''s theme from FFVI, and I loved the brothers'' rooms in MYST)

- Good combat system. This makes the fighting less tedious and more interesting. I guess it''s more an issue of a poor combat system making me think twice about whether I really want to slog through the combat system just for the parts I enjoy.

- Story that doesn''t get in the way. I tried replaying FFIX, but the initial parts of the story are long, with breaks far between (save points even farther) and not that interesting.

- Many ways to do any one thing. My goodness, this is why I still play Deus Ex and Fallout I&II.

- Many things to do, especially things that you''ll miss on a casual run through the game. This isn''t an argument to make things arbitrary, but just that you probably won''t see everything on the first time through. There are so many quests I missed in Fallout I&II the first time through. (Go to gamefaqs.com an note that none of the guides list all the quests, nor all the ways to complete each quest)

Missing the PUSD fits under the last point above. So what if I missed the car in Fallout II? So what if I didn''t get the turbo plasma rifle in Fallout I? So what if I didn''t get Shadow in FFVI? So what if I didn''t get any of the ultimate weapons in FFVII? So what if I missed an upgrade in Deus Ex? All the more incentive to go back and see the world and characters I enjoyed so much.

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Want to disagree? Well let''s make a little list mmkay?

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mmkay

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What are you more likely to play a 4th time all the way through than FF?

A sports game

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Not my cup ''o tea. Why not go outside for The Real Deal?

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A fighting game

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Only if I''m playing against another person, which isn''t exactly "playing through" the game.

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A driving game

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Hmm... in my experience you don''t so much "play through" these games again as "play the tracks/areas (depending on what type it is) you enjoy most". However, I will concede that I do get many hours of enjoyment out of these games. Not necessarily more than I do out of an RPG, though.

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A puzzle game

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That''s hardly fair, Tetris is the greatest game ever created (and I see it holding that title for quite a while).

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An adventure game (maybe..)

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Um... if it''s a good adventure game, it''s probably got so many secrets you missed the first time through, it''d make you cry. Also, if it''s a good adventure game, it''s probably fun to just play it. I still like Zelda:LttP even though I''ve finished it many times.

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A flight simulator

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Hardcore flight sims aren''t for me. The others are probably more accurately FPS''s. I enjoy a good FPS, but, again, typically only if it''s against human opponents (Serious Sam being an exception, sometimes it''s fun to just sit back and shoot stuff).

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A strategy game (maybe..)

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I like some classics, like StarCraft, WarCraft II, but, to be honest, I never made it through any of them even once. The stories are horrid and human opponents are much more fun to play against. (The story battles are more of a good tutorial on what the units do.)

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Looks like FF is pretty shitty on the replay value factor doesn''t it?

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Well, depends on the FF. FFVIII I''m having trouble getting myself through it even once. FFIX I already mentioned why I won''t replay it (even though I really want to). FFX didn''t do much for me (except the sphere grid was pretty cool). Other than that, I''ve only played I, IV, VI, and VII (well, and tactics, but that''s a different type of game). I''ve replayed all of those many times. FFI, hmm... this time I''ll be Fi/Th/Wm/Bm; this time I''ll be Rm/Rm/Wm/Bm; this time I''ll be Bb/Bb/Bb/Bb; this time I''ll be.... FFIV, Cecil, Kain, Rydia, Palom, Porom, the Dwarves. FFVI Setzer, Daryll, Locke, Rachel, Celes, Terra, General Leo, Shadow, Cyan, Kefka, Espers. FFVII Materia, Midgar, SOLDIER, Cloud, Zach, Barret, Red XIII, Vincent, the Ancients. Looks like I''ve got plenty of reasons to replay a lot of the FF games.

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PS: Where have i ever complained about games having bad replay value?

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Really, this whole thing is about replay value. You''re saying the replay value of the game is less than the value of your time that would be spent on that game (or, at least less than the value of whatever else you would be doing with that time). To put it more bluntly, if the replay value were high enough, you wouldn''t mind replaying the game to get the secret weapons you missed.

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I don''t understand why there are people that disagree. There are people out there that consider the ability to shoot yourself in the foot a beneficial feature of a game?

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This one is out of sequence, but that''s because my comment isn''t necessarily relevant to the issues at hand. Why would you make a post to a forum if you only wanted responses along the lines of "AMEN! Preach on brother tieTYT!"? Please don''t just dismiss what others say like that. Also, I hardly consider "missing the ultimate, but ultimately unnecessary, item" equivalent to "shooting yourself in the foot", unless you take games way too seriously and have made a vow to shoot yourself in the foot every time you miss an ultimate weapon. However, I think that means you have greater problems than missing a secret in a video game (In other words, your one-line strawman argument doesn''t work)

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Original post by Way Walker

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You want to make a billion hidden things throughout the game that the player can only get once, that's fine by me. But if you make any of them the coolest spell or weapon or a playable character, then you piss off a lot of people that only have enough time to play the game one time.

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Only if it's something time consuming and/or arbitrary (see most of the crap you have to do for the ultimate weapons in FFX).

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The FFX weapons can still be found at the end of the game i think.

Also, having to go through the entire game again because you missed a one time only secret IS time consuming. That is why it pisses people off.

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Who cares if the second run isn't that new. This is a RPG not a fighting game. If you're buying a RPG for the expected replay value, you're expecting it from the wrong genre. If you want to think about the good qualities of a RPG, replay value is very near the bottom. And if you disagree, please give me a list of qualities a RPG can have that replay value is more important than.

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Um... basically any quality I'd like to see in an RPG is directly related to giving it more replay value. Some examples

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If you would permit me to summarize your comments: You list things that make a RPG fun . Things like a good battle system, good characters, interesting map... But when you look at one time only secrets, all it is, is a crappy way to affect the replay value. It gives the player an ultimatum: either you get yourself a strategy guide or expect to play it more than once. Now what would you rather have: A little more of an interesting world or a little more one time only secrets? A little more interesting characters or a little more one time only secrets? A little more engaging battle system or a little more one time only secrets?

Like i've been trying to say in every reply: There's a way to satisfy both of us. I don't see many people on this thread saying "Oh hell yes, one time only secrets are the best part of RPGs". That in combination with the fact that there are ways to improve replay value (that you just mentioned below) that both you and I would enjoy, how much would you really care if a game had no one time only secrets? Again, why piss off one group when you can please both of them?

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Missing the PUSD fits under the last point above. So what if I missed the car in Fallout II? So what if I didn't get the turbo plasma rifle in Fallout I? So what if I didn't get Shadow in FFVI? So what if I didn't get any of the ultimate weapons in FFVII? So what if I missed an upgrade in Deus Ex? All the more incentive to go back and see the world and characters I enjoyed so much.

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So i just wasted 30 hours and already know what happened in those 30 past hours. Now i'm going to have to play for another 30 more hours and each step along the way i've already seen what is going to happen. I think by definition that is a waste of time. That is why i don't like missing important crap like an entire character.

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What are you more likely to play a 4th time all the way through than FF?

A sports game

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Not my cup 'o tea. Why not go outside for The Real Deal?

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Come on man, look at it from a different perspective. Obviously you'll end up playing a sports game more than an RPG. It only takes 20 minutes of time to play through a basketball game.

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A fighting game

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Only if I'm playing against another person, which isn't exactly "playing through" the game.

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It doesn't matter if you're playing through or not. What matters is if you're re-playing it. And you're going to be re-playing a fighting game almost every time you turn it on. A RPG on the other hand, you're usually starting at your last save point. Hence, RPGs have some of the worst replay value of any genre.

I've been playing Tekken 4 for over 3 years and Soul Calibur 2 for over 2 years. Do you think a single RPG could hold my interest that long?

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An adventure game (maybe..)

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Um... if it's a good adventure game, it's probably got so many secrets you missed the first time through, it'd make you cry. Also, if it's a good adventure game, it's probably fun to just play it. I still like Zelda:LttP even though I've finished it many times.

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So you're saying i'm right? Adventure's do have more replay value?

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PS: Where have i ever complained about games having bad replay value?

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Really, this whole thing is about replay value. You're saying the replay value of the game is less than the value of your time that would be spent on that game (or, at least less than the value of whatever else you would be doing with that time). To put it more bluntly, if the replay value were high enough, you wouldn't mind replaying the game to get the secret weapons you missed.

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If that statement were in a vacuum, i might agree with you. But looking at other things such as good story, it makes that statement false (for me i mean). No matter how good a RPG is you're going to end up going through the same thing for another 70+ hours the second time you play through it. Even if you get the new stuff, you still have to see Cecil change into a paladin and Aeris die and Squall do boring shit.

So my point is, even with a RPG that has great qualities that you consider to add to replay value, i will still mind playing it again all the way through.

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I don't understand why there are people that disagree. There are people out there that consider the ability to shoot yourself in the foot a beneficial feature of a game?

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This one is out of sequence, but that's because my comment isn't necessarily relevant to the issues at hand. Why would you make a post to a forum if you only wanted responses along the lines of "AMEN! Preach on brother tieTYT!"? Please don't just dismiss what others say like that. Also, I hardly consider "missing the ultimate, but ultimately unnecessary, item" equivalent to "shooting yourself in the foot", unless you take games way too seriously and have made a vow to shoot yourself in the foot every time you miss an ultimate weapon. However, I think that means you have greater problems than missing a secret in a video game (In other words, your one-line strawman argument doesn't work)

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I donno man. Just because what i said was extreme, it was more of an analogy than something to be thought of literally. One time only secrets allow you to screw yourself over. Even if you WANT to play the game over again, missing something really good in the current game makes the current game incomplete in a big way. It lets you shoot yourself in the foot.

[edited by - tieTYT on April 12, 2004 7:17:07 AM]

I''m gonna drop the quote tags for the sake of avoiding a huge post.

"Also, having to go through the entire game again because you missed a one time only secret IS time consuming. That is why it pisses people off."

The irony is that the previous couple of posters all seemed to support just the opposite. The only reason you''d loath going through a game again is if you didn''t enjoy your first run through. And if you didn''t enjoy your first run through, you obviously shouldn''t have any reason to care about finding Pimpim the magic watermallon sword.

"If you would permit me to summarize your comments: You list things that make a RPG fun . Things like a good battle system, good characters, interesting map... But when you look at one time only secrets, all it is, is a crappy way to affect the replay value."

I think it would be best if you dropped the term "replay value." You start off saying that one-time only secrets do not affect it, that RPGs have no replay value, and then you go the complete opposite direction but still make it seem like a bad thing. I could say a party sucks because there''s no alcohol, but then again once the beer comes in I can complain about stupid teens always getting drunk.

"It gives the player an ultimatum: either you get yourself a strategy guide or expect to play it more than once."

Funny, I never needed a strategy guide to find one-time secrets. The only reason I ever got strategy guides was for monster and equipment stat listings and additional information on stuff that wasn''t covered by the game (such as extended character bios).

"Now what would you rather have: A little more of an interesting world or a little more one time only secrets? A little more interesting characters or a little more one time only secrets? A little more engaging battle system or a little more one time only secrets?"

The beauty of RPGs is that you can have both.

Like i''ve been trying to say in every reply: There''s a way to satisfy both of us.

Not really. AFAIK, your stance is "abolish one-time secrets!" Ours is more along the lines of "dude, one-time secrets add depth!" Then you counter with "No way dude, it''s about replay value. Of which there is none!" and we''re all like "DUUUUDE! One-time secrets ADD replay value!" and you''re all "OMFG WTF! No way d00d, they take it away." ...Then we''re all like... "Uh... wtf...?"

[i"I don''t see many people on this thread saying "Oh hell yes, one time only secrets are the best part of RPGs".

Good. Then I''ll be the first to claim so. I think they''re what can actually MAKE a good RPG. What about one-time paths through the game? "Help the light elf army or help the dark elf army" for one. Bam. Two paths. Possible major impact on the storyline. You''d have to play through the game again. Or how about this scenario: you try to rebuild a broken world and depending on your actions, either magic or technology furthers itself. Every once in a while, a "secret" dungeon or event will be unlocked depending on which is highest. Imagine if both were present. I''d play through the game all 4 times to see everything, and everytime it''d be different. Even if joining the light elf army and raising technology to the max only gets me a cheap crossbow.

So i just wasted 30 hours and already know what happened in those 30 past hours. Now i''m going to have to play for another 30 more hours and each step along the way i''ve already seen what is going to happen. I think by definition that is a waste of time.

I take it you don''t watch movies again once you''ve seen them?

That is why i don''t like missing important crap like an entire character.

Ah, optional characters are rarely important. I challenge you to name one game where an optional side-quest is vital to finishing the game. They''re there as little extras that don''t fully matter but still make you go "OMFG, cool!" when you find them.

Remember the hidding one-up halfway through stage 1-1 in Mario 1? Not an RPG, I know, but it''s a rather unimportant power-up. You still can''t help but grin when you find yourself bumping your head in thin air and a one-up mushroom drops out of a hidden block.

Come on man, look at it from a different perspective. Obviously you''ll end up playing a sports game more than an RPG. It only takes 20 minutes of time to play through a basketball game.

OUCH! Now I know what''s wrong: you don''t understand the concept of varying subjectivities!

It doesn''t matter if you''re playing through or not. What matters is if you''re re-playing it. And you''re going to be re-playing a fighting game almost every time you turn it on. A RPG on the other hand, you''re usually starting at your last save point. Hence, RPGs have some of the worst replay value of any genre.

You start against one of, say, 12 possible opponents in a fighting game all the time. Oh yay, that''s REALLY different from starting at your last save point, isn''t it? MUCH more varied.

I hope you realize your argument doesn''t further your stance. This does not affect replay value at all, merely how the game progresses.

I''ve been playing Tekken 4 for over 3 years and Soul Calibur 2 for over 2 years. Do you think a single RPG could hold my interest that long?

Hey, listen: we''re not "you." The entire population of the world doesn''t like everything you like. Personally, if I''d know someone who''d play a fighting game for years, I''d seriously wonder how badly my social image would be affected walking around with them. Then again, I''m a programmer.

So you''re saying i''m right? Adventure''s do have more replay value?

For the same reasons than RPGs. You do realize that they''re the same genre, just with a different means of conveying events? They, too, have one-time secrets. Secret of Mana and Legend of Zelda III come to mind.

Come to think of it, make them turn-based and, hey, RPGs! How strange...

One time only secrets allow you to screw yourself over. Even if you WANT to play the game over again, missing something really good in the current game makes the current game incomplete in a big way. It lets you shoot yourself in the foot.

You do realize that what people have been trying to convey over is that, no, you don''t NEED a PERFECT game the FIRST time you play through.

It would be nice for you to realize that RPGs just aren''t your genre of choice. And for such, one can only question why you''d raise an issue that fans of said genre are supportive of.

How about we make fighting games where you can take back a move if you get hit, so that you''ll have a "perfect" score by the end? I think it rather ruins the genre having to tediously play the same battles over and over just to not get hit or to unlock Special Move X.

Better idea: let''s abolish all in-game secrets and spoon-feed them to the player.

Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread, but here are my thoughts:

I''m not so much worried about missing the uber items in these games. What I hate is missing all of the neat content. The FF series in particular has tons of neat easter egg stories hidden about. They are a device for selling strategy guides.

I''m okay with having hidden stuff. It can be really neat if you stumble upon it, and in games like Chrono Trigger where there IS a lot of replay value, then finding them in subsequent games is okay. However, gating players from getting back to that content at the end of the game is poor design in games that have already told their story (unlike Chrono Trigger - where the story is different during replay).

I never did like any of the FF games.

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Original post by RuneLancer
I'm gonna drop the quote tags for the sake of avoiding a huge post.

"Also, having to go through the entire game again because you missed a one time only secret IS time consuming. That is why it pisses people off."

The irony is that the previous couple of posters all seemed to support just the opposite. The only reason you'd loath going through a game again is if you didn't enjoy your first run through. And if you didn't enjoy your first run through, you obviously shouldn't have any reason to care about finding Pimpim the magic watermallon sword.

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Am i not a person? It pisses me off. You can also look at the beginning of the thread and see that there are people like me that don't like one-time only secrets too. You completely ignored the point i made anyway. And that is that playing through a RPG all over again is time consuming. This is annoying to all people that don't like to "consume time". My favorite game of all time is final fantasy 4j. Even though i've been playing soul calibur 2 for the past 2 years, i've never beat FF4j in its entirety more than once. You're going to have to accept that we just don't play RPGs in the same way.

I'm sorry but you're wrong: hating it the first time is not the reason i'd loath going through a game again. You really have trouble seeing my perspective through anything but your own eyes. Clearly the reason we disagree about this issue is because we play RPGs for different reasons. You seem to think emphasis on "things to do" is what is important. I think that an emphasis on a good storyline is what's important. I think of a RPG as an interactive story. As such, playing through a RPG over again because i want the strongest spell that i missed sucks for me because it's like playing 30 hours that i've already played to get something that takes 10 minutes.

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"If you would permit me to summarize your comments: You list things that make a RPG fun . Things like a good battle system, good characters, interesting map... But when you look at one time only secrets, all it is, is a crappy way to affect the replay value."

I think it would be best if you dropped the term "replay value." You start off saying that one-time only secrets do not affect it, that RPGs have no replay value, and then you go the complete opposite direction but still make it seem like a bad thing. I could say a party sucks because there's no alcohol, but then again once the beer comes in I can complain about stupid teens always getting drunk.

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First and foremost: Where did i say one time only secrets do not affect replay value?

Second: The rest of this doesn't seem to be a reaction with what i've said. I think you should back up and read my previous posts.

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"It gives the player an ultimatum: either you get yourself a strategy guide or expect to play it more than once."

Funny, I never needed a strategy guide to find one-time secrets. The only reason I ever got strategy guides was for monster and equipment stat listings and additional information on stuff that wasn't covered by the game (such as extended character bios).

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Well that's nice. I know you're the RPG masta because you can beat them all in 8 hours and shit, but if you're going to give the player freedom you must expect at least some of them to miss some one-time only secrets. Those that miss the important ones will want to replay.

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"Now what would you rather have: A little more of an interesting world or a little more one time only secrets? A little more interesting characters or a little more one time only secrets? A little more engaging battle system or a little more one time only secrets?"

The beauty of RPGs is that you can have both.

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ahh, such a nice way to avoid a question. such a nice way to ignore my point over and over and over again that if you can piss one group off or you can please both of them choose to do the latter.

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"I don't see many people on this thread saying "Oh hell yes, one time only secrets are the best part of RPGs".

Good. Then I'll be the first to claim so. I think they're what can actually MAKE a good RPG.

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Great man, have fun with your game that has absolutely shitty graphics (which i don't really care about), terrible translation, terrible dialog, a terrible battle system, a terrible map, terrible characters, terrible monsters, terrible story, but an excellent list of one time only secrets!@!@. Way to set your priorities man. I can't believe you were the one that told me that i have no understanding of how RPGs work. Right back at ya.

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So i just wasted 30 hours and already know what happened in those 30 past hours. Now i'm going to have to play for another 30 more hours and each step along the way i've already seen what is going to happen. I think by definition that is a waste of time.

I take it you don't watch movies again once you've seen them?

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I do. But that's a movie. That's 2 hours. And besides, most people always prefer to see a new movie if they have the choice. Otherwise every theater would go out of business because people would just wait for them to come out on tape.

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That is why i don't like missing important crap like an entire character.

Ah, optional characters are rarely important. I challenge you to name one game where an optional side-quest is vital to finishing the game. They're there as little extras that don't fully matter but still make you go "OMFG, cool!" when you find them.

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Obviously.. that's the definition of a side-quest: it's not vital.

I happen to think characters are rather important to a game. That is why i don't like to be missing one. I hope that makes enough sense.

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Remember the hidding one-up halfway through stage 1-1 in Mario 1? Not an RPG, I know, but it's a rather unimportant power-up. You still can't help but grin when you find yourself bumping your head in thin air and a one-up mushroom drops out of a hidden block.

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You're going to have to stop using comparisons to other genres. I happen to like one-time only secrets in games that are not RPGs. I put RPG: at the beginning of this topic for a very specific reason.

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Come on man, look at it from a different perspective. Obviously you'll end up playing a sports game more than an RPG. It only takes 20 minutes of time to play through a basketball game.

OUCH! Now I know what's wrong: you don't understand the concept of varying subjectivities!

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That concept is ridiculous. Do you have a chart somewhere that says playing a RPG through once is like playing a fighting game 20 times and playing a sports game 15 times? Sorry, i must have not got that memo. I prefer to argue rationally. The average gamer that plays a sports game will end up replaying the sports game more often than the average gamer playing through a RPG. We will relate each one of these times that we REplay one of these games to the replay value. Sports games have more replay value than RPGs unless you're a fanatic that's been playing FFVI through as long as i've been playing Tekken 4. If you disagree with me, call up webster man, or make up your own word that represents what you're really trying to describe, because it's not replay value.

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It doesn't matter if you're playing through or not. What matters is if you're re-playing it. And you're going to be re-playing a fighting game almost every time you turn it on. A RPG on the other hand, you're usually starting at your last save point. Hence, RPGs have some of the worst replay value of any genre.

You start against one of, say, 12 possible opponents in a fighting game all the time. Oh yay, that's REALLY different from starting at your last save point, isn't it? MUCH more varied.

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Well clearly you've never played a fighting game at a high level before. Regardless, your reply was extremely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if each time you play a fighting game it's the same thing. It matters how often you replay the fighting game. Again: You'll be replaying a fighting game more often than a RPG so a fighting game has more replaying value.

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I hope you realize your argument doesn't further your stance. This does not affect replay value at all, merely how the game progresses.

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You're wrong. This is the definition of replay value: How often you REplay the game. Again, if you disagree, call webster or use a different term.

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I've been playing Tekken 4 for over 3 years and Soul Calibur 2 for over 2 years. Do you think a single RPG could hold my interest that long?

Hey, listen: we're not "you." The entire population of the world doesn't like everything you like. Personally, if I'd know someone who'd play a fighting game for years, I'd seriously wonder how badly my social image would be affected walking around with them. Then again, I'm a programmer.

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Ah, point slipped through: It's easier to replay a fighting game more than a RPG.

That being said, i'll reply to your irrelevant stuff: Ok, so you play RPGs over and over again by yourself for hours in your room. Me on the other hand, I play fighting games with other people, in tournaments and socialize constantly while i'm doing it. Now we're both dorks, but i think i'm a little higher up on the social level in terms of coolness

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It would be nice for you to realize that RPGs just aren't your genre of choice. And for such, one can only question why you'd raise an issue that fans of said genre are supportive of.

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Uh, whatever.

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How about we make fighting games where you can take back a move if you get hit, so that you'll have a "perfect" score by the end? I think it rather ruins the genre having to tediously play the same battles over and over just to not get hit or to unlock Special Move X.

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WTF are you talking about?

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Better idea: let's abolish all in-game secrets and spoon-feed them to the player.

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I've got an even better idea: Let's have a game that sucks in every respect except for it's one time only secrets. Since one time secrets are one of the best things about RPGs, it will still be a good game.

[edited by - tieTYT on April 12, 2004 3:02:25 PM]

[edited by - tieTYT on April 12, 2004 3:10:57 PM]

fighting games can be replayed more times by default, because a match lasts, what, a minute or two? RPGs last much much longer than that, so the two cannot be compared that way.

do not take this as a personal attack, but i think the problem is you. it is not necessary to find every secret in every game. it is a bonus or reward for exploring carefully. if you are playing an RPG for the story alone, why do you even care if you found the best sword? the story is the same anyway.