ok now i see the big things
genre hold class of object,
universe hold situation (relationship between class of object)
subject is one situation that holds the thematic problem

now we have linked back universe to story

now we can back to te real problem and the actual main topic
building universe,

since subject is hold in the universe and tie to thematic once the thematic and the subject is choose we generate element that is relevent to the conflict and create instance of class of object that suit the theme

but now we have a new layer to analyse
binary scenography and binary story telling
scenography is a particular spatial arrangement of a situation that have meaning and storytelling is the temporal arrangement of sequence that build the argument and then the story, story telling don''t have to follow the chronological order but a dramatic order in a way to influance audiance

once these two problem succesfully analyse, the binary dm would simply be a matter of implementation

are you still folowing me??

friendly neoshaman

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep, it was quick but i sudenly realize that the purpose of the scenography is to present statement, a case, set of fact from the theme and subject, then every thing in the space is choose or create accordingly of this statement, once the statement is expose we start the argumentation, the player act and the system argue back by making new statement, the order of the statement make the storytelling, binary dm is complete in his theorical form?

of course to argue back the binary dm must hold beleif, its a dramatic dialogue that occur during the flow of the game

about the randomness, you where right we need some, because the computer did not hold any experiance of his own and then any lack/desire, it don''t have the bias that made us create story (according to theory of the mind), then we must randomly create this experiance with basic element,
the improvement of this would be that once the first story is generate we would use the mind of one of the npc of the story to tell further story,
other ways is to let the user the responsability to create the initial input or put the player in an neutral instable state and let his action create the original imbalance that would the game would focus one, improvising on this initial break to return to a stable state, kinda like setting the player as a mice at an elephant corridor

the second things is i have put dow , the psychological aproach to take story writing book:
the first conclusion is that there is already theory at least about the thematic and story structure, but th elittle difference is that i have made my assumption base on game structure, this mean GAME and STORY have COMMON STRUCTURE
the second things is a more practical one, i just tick that the main character (the one with which the audiance see things)doesnot have to be the protagonist (the one who pursue the goal of the story) but must at least hold the problem or the solution (or the source of them) that make it involve in the matter of the action, this lead to two major aproach of design:
DESTINY> the player is the protagonist and have no choice but to complete his task>> lead to temporal game but remain dinamic with the binary dm
FATE> the player is free from goal, but is in the concern of an argument around him, he could try to flee away or try to hold the responsability, he is also the main characer in the way we see things with his point of view (actually ours if we are not constrain by personnality of the character we hold), the game is much more interesting for some peaple because they could express them and choose what to do, hawever everythings they would do will have consequence in the whole world and drama around them, the binary dm has not the purpose of a total sandbox

are you agree with the above statement???

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

....
i''m sorry sunandshadow, i have so less caring ability (asperger syndrome), that i have made you run, i can''t go far without someone bouncing me on the way,
however i apologize

i''m so despress

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh dear... *hugs Neoshaman* Really, I haven''t run anywhere (for one thing I''m the moderator of this forum ), I just couldn''t think of anything else useful to say, and I''m still sick which makes me not be able to think well about complicated problems like story structure. So please don''t be depressed!

Here''s a question - have you tried to prototype the binary dm with a flowchart or pseudocode? Maybe that would help make things clear? In my opinion, you should be able to do the screenography and story telling as two independant functions after the main story generation function has run. The screenography must run after the worldbuilding generation, because the worldbuilding determines what locations are available to put objects and characters in. And the storytelling would probably run continuously throughout the game, right? Because the NPC dialogue would need to be generated based on what the PC said to the NPC.

glad you are listhing sorry for the cry, i was in a bad mood
hope you get heal fast for yourself

about the binary i have more a flow chart than pseudo code since some aspect are still tricky ( i would have to get back cut some branch and reorganizing the chart with the new data)

yes i have made the scenography and story telling independant since they are feed by the builder, BUT they was useful to analyse relationship between element

actually i have not decideto make the pc told to npc, because language could be seen as a simulator or reality (narratives is the higher level), bob take the gun is like observing the action taken (virtually), then i have decide that the action of the player would be the language between them (this not mean that the npc not told back to the player)
in a pure analysis point of view, it''s the same, for action, the npc has to find who is the agent (bob) what action/event is happening (take) on which subject (the gun)
but i''hve not thought of this too much, it''s important for the appraisal of action and then to argue back but we still have to know what and how to argue back, then define what is an argument

the actual problem lies in fact in symbolics and belief, aka how to make sense of a situation and then how to generate one,
based on what the situation meet the thematic and create the subject, now i don''t have a clue
in facts it''s the most important part the turning point

and it''s now that your caveman list would be useful as a universe template (we would try to extract situation and seek how meaning come with object/relation with object and thematic)
i''m starting suspect that object hold a meaning towards a belief from the thematic state
a chair in the hand of an ennemy would be label harmful, when the same chair lying on the ground could be seen as a weapon, the meaning may come from a TENSION RELATION from goal and need

any idea??

amically, neoshaman

carthasis
oups sorry, the fact is that i''m in a hard time socially, i''m kept moving and lose relationship while changing location (i''m going to , and i have trouble with emotion context (that''s why i have a big emphasis bias towards it, i have to emulate most relation code rationnaly) i''m not very strong at short term relationship (i''m confuse most of time because i don''t know the person and then how the person react and how to react) but it get cool at long time but if the context is not formal too much, i get worried quickly because i don''t want to be a bad people, i pay a lot of attention to other without actually being to choose a correct response (and then continuing on my act)
all these analysis while caring i use them to make the binary dm, which a ratioanl emotional system after all

/carthasis sorry

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

quote:

---

Original post by Neoshaman
glad you are listening sorry for the cry, i was in a bad mood
hope you get heal fast for yourself

---

Yeah, I certainly hope I get better soon too, I hate being sick, it makes me feel weak and stupid, so because I feel that way I avoid doing difficult things, and then I feel guilty for neglecting my responsibilities... but at least the weather here was beautiful today, and that made me feel happier. I hope you find things to make you feel better too.

Okay, back to the topic. I would like to see your flow chart when you have a good version of it.

I was talking about generating stories with my roommate, and he said (he''s a math guy) that making the codependant decisions at the beginning of generating the plot was like solving a system of simultaneous equations. Don''t know if that helps you, but maybe you could program it that way? Or maybe that would be too hard?

quote:

---

actually i have not decide to make the pc told to npc, because language could be seen as a simulator or reality (narratives is the higher level), bob take the gun is like observing the action taken (virtually), then i have decide that the action of the player would be the language between them (this not mean that the npc not told back to the player)

---

I''m a little confused by this paragraph - do you mean the player can''t speak to the NPCs? That would simplify the programming, but it would probably feel strange to play a game like that... I don''t know how that would work. It cuts a ot of interesting possibilities out if you can''t try to persuede or bribe or threaten the NPCs.

quote:

---

in a pure analysis point of view, it''s the same, for action, the npc has to find who is the agent (bob) what action/event is happening (take) on which subject (the gun)
but i''hve not thought of this too much, it''s important for the appraisal of action and then to argue back but we still have to know what and how to argue back, then define what is an argument

the actual problem lies in fact in symbolics and belief, aka how to make sense of a situation and then how to generate one,
based on what the situation meet the thematic and create the subject, now i don''t have a clue
in facts it''s the most important part the turning point

and it''s now that your caveman list would be useful as a universe template (we would try to extract situation and seek how meaning come with object/relation with object and thematic)
i''m starting suspect that object hold a meaning towards a belief from the thematic state
a chair in the hand of an ennemy would be label harmful, when the same chair lying on the ground could be seen as a weapon, the meaning may come from a TENSION RELATION from goal and need

---

Ah, here you''re talking about ''roles''. There are only a few archetypal roles in which objects can be used in a game, we''ll just make a list of them and the dm will have to keep track of which object is in which role and what that role means.

Some object roles:
barrier/threshhold/container (wall, door window, locked box, closed jar, jail cell)
key (includes real keys, quest items, presents, and amounts of money)
weapon (item used by character to inflict damage to other character or barrier)
equippble (clothing, armor, accessory)
structural (crate, footstool, ladder, rope)
character (pc, npcs, animals/monsters)
sign (any object that communicates info, whether by words, a picture, or a symbolic object like a throne or an altar)
decorative (these don''t do anything, they just look interesting)

quote:

---

carthasis
oups sorry, the fact is that i''m in a hard time socially, i''m kept moving and lose relationship while changing location (i''m going to , and i have trouble with emotion context (that''s why i have a big emphasis bias towards it, i have to emulate most relation code rationnaly) i''m not very strong at short term relationship (i''m confuse most of time because i don''t know the person and then how the person react and how to react) but it get cool at long time but if the context is not formal too much, i get worried quickly because i don''t want to be a bad people, i pay a lot of attention to other without actually being to choose a correct response (and then continuing on my act)
all these analysis while caring i use them to make the binary dm, which a ratioanl emotional system after all

/carthasis sorry

---

I hate moving and losing friends too. I can only imagine how confusing it must be to have asperger''s. I do have a thought though - have you ever studied personality type theory? There is a theory by a man named Keirsey (or maybe Kiersey???) that there are only 4 main kinds of people in the world, and if you want to be more specific you can multiply to get 16 detailed kinds. Maybe if you read about these types, you could learn to analyze which a person is, and then you would feel that you know them somewhat? I don''t know, it might work for you or it might not. Either way, I can help with the emotional parts of the binary dm if you need me too. I saw a good way of representing emotions mathematiclly once, let me try to find it again, I think it will work for our purposes.

I hope you find some new friends and other happy things after you move!

quote:

---

quote:

---

actually i have not decide to make the pc told to npc, because language could be seen as a simulator or reality (narratives is the higher level), bob take the gun is like observing the action taken (virtually), then i have decide that the action of the player would be the language between them (this not mean that the npc not told back to the player)

---

I''m a little confused by this paragraph - do you mean the player can''t speak to the NPCs? That would simplify the programming, but it would probably feel strange to play a game like that... I don''t know how that would work. It cuts a ot of interesting possibilities out if you can''t try to persuede or bribe or threaten the NPCs.

---

well it''s because the problem is the same from an npc mind, and since i''m focusing on the mind aspect, i would not bother with another problem, languague mimick observation, then let the agent observe and later it would be useful for those who would implement language recognition, which i think the problem lie in indentifying "role" and link them with a representation (meaning)
this mean that aside of recognize object they must recognize their fct and action, the two last is not well coverage in today game, it''s the appraisal of a situation (note that you could have a sys that would create such a representation of a scene and let the npc ask thos which is in perception range, however the system would not include the ''interpretation'' role which the ''emotional'' conclusion, mean if the action taken is harmful or whatever)

quote:

---

Ah, here you''re talking about ''roles''. There are only a few archetypal roles in which objects can be used in a game, we''ll just make a list of them and the dm will have to keep track of which object is in which role and what that role means.

Some object roles:
barrier/threshhold/container (wall, door window, locked box, closed jar, jail cell)
key (includes real keys, quest items, presents, and amounts of money)
weapon (item used by character to inflict damage to other character or barrier)
equippble (clothing, armor, accessory)
structural (crate, footstool, ladder, rope)
character (pc, npcs, animals/monsters)
sign (any object that communicates info, whether by words, a picture, or a symbolic object like a throne or an altar)
decorative (these don''t do anything, they just look interesting)

---

GREAT, but i think it''s better to find something more abstract to class them, that we would a more flexible engine, actually i see that''s there a reflect of the role of character in a story, but the new term help me to understand how to transpose them, the difference if the perspective is ''path'' rather than goal, at least thing would work in a txt binary dm, and the info would be pass to another generator the level design generator but''s it''s another matter, if the binary dm could output abstract structural that would feed each sub system it''s cool either

actually a little more about binary dm is that it''s the whole theory rather than a particular program, i plan to implement some aspect as different level of complexity or resolution in some game to test them separately before making a true binary dm,

then the system as dinamic temporal agent mind define by goal toss by the theme
and spatial object wich fonction are define by path
character as mind or as object have not the same role, this also help analyze and plan resolution of ai according to their role, character which have a importance in the dramatic structure would be the most autonomous while those which gather information would be simple fms link with the story state just like old character kind in common rpg, this then reduce the complexity of management and computation while enhance the experiance

sunandsha you''re a queen

now object had spatial role, then we must find class of interpretation that build the link with mind, mean if a gate is harmful or helpful, it seems easy and seems to be already here, but my mind is to clouded for the moment i will come back

amically neoshaman

actually asperger strike 1 person on 1000, it''s quite common in a sense, it''s more male orianted, if the average intellegence is the same beetween man and woman statistically, i reality woman tend to have more uniform repartitition of ability than man where there great imbalance beetween then, this is due of a different use of the brain, man use more one part of their brain while human use both part of their brain for the same task, this lead than man tend to be specialize better and be strong at one thing but weak at other, were woman are more balance, think about it, man are more monomaniac there litle woman that are serial killer or psychopath (could make an original story, but not by transposing the male archetype)
conclusion: woman are more competant, while man tend be great specialist
but''s it''s a general view, and that''s for the theory

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

oups i have find that i''m making confusion between the story as a mind and npc mind, in the story space npc DON''T have mind because we are in a kind of mind, they actually represent fonction of the mind in process, all decision is from the binary dm


however, in a hurry, we have

the binary dm create the theme,
it output a situation that make a first statement and contain the initial problem (case of thematic),
the player toss a response (by taking action) around the problem
while the argument character of the binary dm act too,
the player coopere or is in conflict with the argument character, (the player has to hold a part of the solution or the problem that he have responsability in the story and get influance from it whatever he do)
the first problem is solve towrd the bigger problem, according to the result the binary procede to the next solution, until all case are solve and then the story end by a conclusion than sum up the problematic (faillure or sucess)
this is for simple story, while playing a party multiple thread could open as problem came when a case is still in process, making the player balance between multiple occupation making the game less linear and more dinamic because situation could influance each other

a problem that raise is that transition beetween situation have also meaning, we have to find what class of transition we would look at

notice that character could have multiple instance and could be a group, or whatever that could take action (or actively influance as a mind) and seen as story character or represent a fct of the story, think about a famous ring hold by a hobbit

apart from the universe we must have class of belief around it, belief is tie to thematic but is another link with subject to universe, they hold the evaluation process that build the connotation of object, act and situation that make the argument of the binary dm, but like universe their are kind of external from thought, they are build from experiance, and since we don''t have the binary having experiancing universe we must generate, like universe, with template

to resume
the binary use template of universe with the thematic structure to create a situation that hold one problem, this is the initial statement, this statement hold spatial distribution (role) which gather the information about the case and the problem,
tonce this has been made the thought process start the developpement, the player take action and argument character take action, from their interaction a conclusion came when they have got through all option of the situation, new problem are create, simple story use only one after the other while complex hold multiple dinamic plot

another problem is that object in the game could hold multiple fct, a same building could be a place which serve multiple purpose, or a character (as object) have multiple role (multiple mind character), depending on a situation, we must think about problem hold by reusability

after this binary dm would be structurally complete i think
since we would have complete the union beetween the mind and object, i hope, we would care about more practical problem

i have reach some intuition limit, now it''s your turn sunandsha, are you geting better?

amically neoshaman


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

lol, no I''m not getting better yet, but I''ll try to take a turn contributing some thoughts.

Argument character - this is an NPC? I don''t think that''s a good idea. Well, it would be good for stories where there is an antagonist, but in many stories the conflict, or argument, comes from some place other than a character. It may come from the physical world, or from within the pc, or from a social group, or other places. I think the idea that the DM argues with the player s good, but the arguer should be the dm itself in its role as the author, the god of the story world.

So if the dm starts by choosing a theme, should we start by making a list of themes?

ho great this clarify a bit things, the dm is responsible of the belief then, it''s him that choose consequence of action, reaction of player''s action (and then decision), if the theme is "love" saying that''s a subclass of my abstract thematic classement, the dm would beleive that love lead to delusion, then all action taken towards love would have delusion consequence making the argument, but to have a more dinamic thought i will keep tha argument character in line, little improving their role, each argument character (yes now there is many) represent some "case" of beleif, different strategy that would illustrate the beleif of the dm, they are building around the theme, each of theme take action and have relation upon them and the dm would create consequence of there action as a demonstration of his thought, the trick is that i consciously put aside the dilemna that could arise in a system, letting the surprise to see how the system would handle them (probably crash or becoming incoherent but i still want to see if there is some emergent from this)
the sys could also be tune with a bias value towards logic argument or symbolic driven argument, symbolic driven force action upon coherance this , i hope, would create sureal story, the rational part would try to find consequence according to the logic of the world (and more likely to find dead end dilemna)

character is a dramatic fct, they could be group, in french i use two different world but i haven''t equivalent in english

list??? i don''t like list
it''s ok if you have a method behind, but my philosophy is to indentify the tree before the leaf by looking fromc the trunk to the leaf

theme as far as i see them fall in two dimension desire/fear bias and loss/obtaining which combin themself, in the Z axis we have the "maslow depth" (biological, security, sociologial/emotional, spiritual but i would have to seek again, i''m not sure, i would have a better definition)
for example love or greed would be in the depth 3
if you are agree you can come with a list from this clasiification

another bias that influance theme is belief
belief has dimension two, the preference and the standard
preference hold the like/dislike
while standard hold the judgement praise/blame (good or evil)
a like+blame would create guilty

belief may be encode about attribute of object rather than object themself (more flexibility while putting new object)

i have don''t think more far about the relation between belief/thematic/situation which is the core problem how to encode external (universe) into internal (mind) or if the solution is lready here i don''t see it yet

how to describe object, universe and situation is not clear in my mind too

amically neoshaman

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>