not enough clear?
too complex?
not interesting?

i''m sorry,
however i''m still checking the link that i did not see yet

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don''t worry, I just hadn''t gotten around to reading it yet! (Friday is my busiest day of the week because I do laundry, get groceries, etc.)

The space and context where the story takes place, hmm... I''m not quite sure what you mean by this. Do you want a list of the kinds of cultures in which a story can take place, and the attitudes/opinions/philosophy of each? I think it would help make the task manageable to try to make your dm capable of creating games in one specific setting, then add different data sets for other settings. And the more primitive the setting, the easier it would be to fully describe, so you might want to start with cavemen first, then medieval, etc.

If I misunderstood, then can you tell me what specifically you would like me to research/think about/work on to help you?

well i'm starting to find good post (mostly from bishop pass as always from this subject) from the link you have put, i haven't read all yet, wait until i have, and i would lay down some conclusion

well before reading these post (those about situation creator)
and still now i was thinking about the role of universe in story and how we choose/organise them in it, since plot and character are foreground we have focus on them, the universe is the background, it set the mood and make the plot and the character in the perspective, imagine what would be LOTR without any description! the fact is that we now for ex that a character is a protagonist (the one who seek the goal) or an antagonist (the one who prevent the goal to be acheive) those who help are the sidekick etc.... these are fct of character, a character could disapear but the function must remain for the story still being a story, character could change fct but fct remain, plot is the same but what about universe????

actual template provide ready made structure, just like oop they have encapsulate fct the problem is that we don't have access to the internal code the protected variable, that lead to difficulty to manipulate the object (joke that's why lisp is king in top of C++ or any imperative OOP language /joke)

we know many genre content, the idea is to do some reverse engeneering in order to discover the internal anatomy of the content to create new one and then find how are they re fct in a story (what is the equivalent for place to protaginist??)

universe coding would (i suppose) better understanding how to code such storytelling rule such as substitution where an object is pout metaphorically instead of another to make the same fct but without replacing the actual object but to point towards it and inherit his caracteristique (hope that made sense)

maybe your idea would be a good start, now i just don't have a clue, my mind is at some blank state, but i sense that the solution is right in my front, and it's kidda frustrating, since it's kinda like this the missing link for true narrative interpolation

EDIT:
well imagine that the story took place in a familly setting
it must have the same underlying structure that if he would take place in a cosmic space scale story, i suspect that a universe is base on relationship (situation???) and balance (rule??) of force (value???) through a topology (semantics???)
hope this is not too cryptic, but the idea which strike my head right now

the problem is to define WHAT a universe (setting or whatelse...) is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - neoshaman on March 19, 2004 12:18:35 AM]

Well, here are two thoughts I had:

Genre is a misleading term because it means two different things: genre can mean plot type such as mystery or romance, or genre can mean a set of tropes such as fantasy {unicorn, spell, magic wand} or science fiction {space ship, genetics, gun, matter transmitter}

When you talk about family you are talking about ''character dynamic''. Would a list of all possible character dynamics be helpful to you?

well i had define genre a little in the origibal post like a bag of many things that hold interesting dimension to look at

genre (as content and not as impact on audiance) hold template of character dinamics as well as space dinamics and "tropes"(what does this really mean??) maybe we should begin with a list of each in some general genre to have an archetypal structure of universe??

for ex : heroic fantasy
character (or group as well) dinamics >>> (empire vs rebel, kingdom against kingdom, orc vs human, good vs evil, princess to rescue, dragon as guardian, well i don''t know how to make a good chart of that)

tropes (unicorn, magic wand etc...)

space dinamisc (village, wood of name it, etc...)

the fact is to have a template which would permit us to create a full and complete universe by filling item and reationship slot

it s more clear?

start with whatever you can we will see if it''s good or not


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Okay, I guess I''ll ramble on about cavemen for a while for lack of any better ideas.

Things cavemen do:
-eat
-sleep
-hunt
-gather
-craft (make baskets, weapons, clothing, dinner)
-socialize (talk, fight, have sex, give presents, play, dance)
-teach and practice
-take care of babies/sick people/old people

Objects in a caveman world:
-rocks
-plants and plant products
-animals and animal products
-rivers/lakes
-caves
-artefacts made by people
-fire
-mud/sand/chalk/ocher

Events in a caveman life:
-birth
-coming of age
-marriage
-get injured/sick
-raid neighboring tribe
-feast/party/holiday
-have children
-get a position of authority (shaman, head man, elder)
-mourning another''s death
-own death

Relationships between cavemen:
parent-child
person-sibling/cousin
person-friend
person-fellow tribesman
person-stranger
authority figure - tribesman
person-rival
person-love object
person-self
person-spirit or god
person-enemy person or predator
person-prey animal
person-physical world (luck?)
person-raw materials for crafting
person-completed craft(of that person''s making)
person-trading partner
owner-slave
abuser-abusee

Caveman philosophy:
Well, this is more arguable, but from what I''ve read cavemen might have been matriarchal, probably did not understand the mechanics of fatherhood and conception, definitely did not grow plants or keep livestock, probably believed in animal and other nature spirits and made sacrifices to these, may have been divided into totem groups with associated taboos, probably thought in terms of social debts and obligations, bartered but probably did not have money, lived either in caves or in tents/huts built of wood/mud/animal products, and definitely decorated themselves and their posessions in symbolic ways.

i have read them all, and things comme SUBconsciously clear, i feel my brain working hard and his frustrate that the whole is still internal, i have actually no conscious clue but hint will came this night

your theory on plat , wavinator and bishop pass have put great material yeah!!!

wait soon, i tgink i would come with a complete binary dm structure ready to be practically programming soon, and aside a theory of game/story making

quote:

---

While variations of separation-reunion and danger-rescue remain popular (e.g. obtaining and disaster), depravation-provision is no longer an issue, and authority, love, morality, mistakes, and sacrifice have become new basic scripts.

---

well i think you did it very well summurize possible candidate for thematic unit maybe we would add spiritual, and i guess that we could class them with the maslow ladder, however we would build a difference between goal and need, i suspect this where come the original tension which create meaning ( a meaning is supposed to be the relatioship between a mind and an object, meaning exist only in context), the imbalance of the need create a goal to balance it again, then with a recursive experiance it became for complexe because when a goal cannot be reach directly he create sub need and then subgoal >>> the origin of human complexity and the basic of thematic structure

back on topic, i would stress (for thought material) many things that is the same in an abstract sense in many thought domain
every human activity seems to have at least 4 major point which always come, this build strong relation between activity like philosophie, math and logic, story, martial art thought, game and programmation!! like they was a reflexion of the thought in a mirror
they all have a start condition...
philosophie (an idea)
math and logic (a problem)
story (the original conflict)
martial art (the focus)
programmation (a case)
game (gameplay)

then start data....
philosophie (observation)
math and logic (hypothesis)
story (exposition)
martial art (observation)
programmation (variable and fct declaration)
game (introduction)

a process...
philosophie (thought)
math and logic (demonstration)
story (developpement)
martial art (analysis)
programmation (processing)
game (play)

and an end
philosophie (conclusion)
math and logic (conclusion)
story (outcome)
martial art (action)
programmation (result)
game (game over)

this could be apply to any activity
actually is the process of jumping (process) from a start state to an end state (goal), whith a reason for seeking the end state (need) and whether this state or not is reach or not (end)

a story is a already past process while a game is a process occuring

this help us understand bridge from each other and help learn from each other how there are structured

notice also than language has similar base as reality, there is basic commponent (word or atom) which build higher form from their relationship (word or molecule) and which have higher relation too (phrase or element) etc....
it''s their RELATION that determine caracteristique (meaning)
their relation are build around structure (syntax)

now we can learn more about binary dm simply by looking around us

back on the subject there is some thought i have learn through the link, and the link of the link

we have full theory about character and plot, it would work well, but we have little in depth analysis on their structure that made them nearly impossible to make it practically
we do forget some aspect of story as well, just like i have coin, how the space is in the equation???

but at least i have some better definition

every story has a goal to reach
the goal is an reaction to an need in imbalance which create the conflict, the conflict lay in the thematic but is express through the SUBJECT

i have to coin this new element SUBJECT
i have made different from theme why??
we would take an example the subject is LOVE
ok but it doesn''t tell us what the conflict is!!!
love could fold with this:
danger-rescue (the love is in danger, PROBLEM come from: lack of communication? the evil has kidnapp? the parent oppose?)
obtaining (it''s about what we haven''t)
depravation-provision (actually i have no clue of the meaning of these word ^^

as seen i would not put as a thematic basic element while rescue and obtaining seems to fit it well, but still need for a PROBLEM
this lead to structure SUBJECT-THEMATIC ELEMENT-PROBLEM
PROBLEM is obvious it''s tha thing to resolve in order to achieve goal, the imbalance which create the need,

but can we arrive at a good practical definition of SUBJECT and THEMATIC ELEMENT (may be i should say ARGUMENT??)???

one thing about genre is that we can define that a genre is a template for generic character class and generic activity template (which was situation in the original post)

an activity is define by start condition, rule of process, and outcome, an activity is perform by character
i would stress that character could be divide in abstract character and concrete character, an abstract character would be something like race and group (or story argument bias) or whatelse, while concrete character would be the agent in the world, that help us classify and make and hierachical inheritance of data (caracteristic, possible state and behaviour)
(behaviour would be an internal activity)
character could be inanimate??
behaviour would hold need (for ex in a binary dm they would be scenaristic need or universe need)
can we define RULE as universe need??
value maybe the thematic argument???

after these rambling i would refine the genre template as:
SEMANTICS (hold class of object)
ACTIVITY (hold class of event)
THEMATIC ARGUMENT (hold class of fct? basically the WHY of each item (meaning to evaluate))
RELATION???

ex heroic fantasy
semantics (magic wand, elves, orc)
activity (start condition>> elve meet orc/process>> hate action/outcome >> fromaction taken)

it''s obvious that activity and object could be blend when object can have multiple inheritence leading to some interesting setting

imagine that the setting is creating with the subject:friendship/thematic: element danger/ problem (upper class) racism >> (lower class) morality
you got an orc friend with an elves and all problem that come with
now we would generate a story with the need>> rescue+world/protagonist: the orc/goal>> beat his friend
this mean that the elves friend hold the problem let''s generate it, something which endangered the world from the genre perspective >> thematic element: activity the seek of wealth >> the awakening of the great guardian of the treasure >> a legend predicts that''s is awakening would destroy the land
but we haven''t fill the need of the elves for the activity seek of wealth >>> mother ill and need an expensive cure
no matter what happen the story has a great conflict! and then would have to be ORGANIZE around all argument generate by the conflict
there is absolutly NO RANDMNESS and all is consistant simply by a serie of request when each element is create in order to have consistancy
but we haven''t yet the full organize model
the problem come also from BACGORUND ELEMENT such as space, we don''t have a clue on how to organize them even if we have a flesh out story

-------------------------------------

thanks to your list i have seen more clearly the problem
your list is too character centric and too randomness,
the problem since we try to focus on bnary dm is that we look at WHAT and HOW before WHY
we KNOW that there is someting wrong but couldn''t put the hand on it, the solution is to made a SHIFT OF PERSPECTIVE

for ex as you coin it WHY a caveman?? a caveman alone don''t express anything because it''s not the solution of any NEED (the source of the WHY which build relevence)

we need to look at the NEED of story and built upon this a generator which fulfill this need
you sucessfully fulfill an analysis in your plot theory

this is the missing link, binary dm is already today''s

hope i haven''t been to destructurate as i fell i was while writing the post ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, I understood most of that. I think. My brain certainly gets exercised reading your posts

Okay first, "depravation/provision" - this is the most basic type of need and fullfillment of that need. "Depravation" means the person doesn''t have something they need; "provision" means the need is fulfilled. Examples: I am hungry -> I get some food and eat it. It''s kind of the same as "obtaining", actually.

Next, I''m glad those links have been helping you, I always hoped they would be put to a good use someday.

I agree that Maslow''s ladder (we call it Maslow''s Hierarchy) is a good way to classify needs. There is a small problem though, you also need to give each need a numerical intensity, because sometimes an intense need higher up the ladder can temporarily overwhelm a less intense need lower on the ladder. For example: people can get so lonely that they forget the need to eat, or even the need to live (they kill themselves).


This confused me: "we have full theory about character and plot, it would work well, but we have little in depth analysis on their structure that made them nearly impossible to make it practically
we do forget some aspect of story as well, just like i have coin, how the space is in the equation???" Does ''space'' here mean a slot for putting data into the equation, or does it mean physical space, where the characters and objects are in relation to each other? Or something else?


Hmm, maybe it would help if I describe how I (and theoretically also the binary dm) create a story? For one thing, you say there is no randomness, but I think there will need to be some randomness, because when I make a story I make some decisions randomly. The choice of a character''s name, for example.

Anyway, let me try to describe the process:

First, I decide I want to write a story. This is like turning on the binary dm. By the way, if you want a better name for your engine, I would call it the Teleology Engine. Because that''s what it does: takes a desired outcome (satisfactory resolution of the story) and works backwards to chose the right start condition and data to result in that desired outcome.

Now, there is what is called the "Circle of Six Story Elements":
characters - character dynamic - worldbuilding - theme - plot - atmosphere - then back to characters again. A human writer can start at any one of these 6 elements and work around the circle, but for your engine you might want to pick one to always start with. In my flowchart I suggest that the player have an opportunity to create a preference file where they can indicate which options for each element they do or don''t want the DM to use. For example: I would tell the engine to prefer Character Dynamic - Romantic Relationship, and to not use Atmosphere - Horror. Tell me if you want me to make some lists of what options there are for each element.

Anyway to get Plot we would start with a "Need" of one of the basic types. For example: Danger/Rescue. Something (Object) must be endangered by some change (this is the Initial Incident of the story), which may or may not be caused by a Villian, and the Object must be rescued by someone (the Player, usually). There must also be some Obstacle preventing the Player from immediately rescuing the Object.

So the Object in need of rescuing may be a Character, an Item, or an Abstract Idea. The choice of object would depend on the worldbuilding and theme. For example: if Worldbuilding==Cavemen, we wouldn''t be rescuing a stolen spaceship; and if one of the Themes (please note: most stories have more than one theme) ==Slavery then we might be rescuing a slave or some object which symbolized the difference between freedom and slavery, like citizenship papers or the key to a slave collar. If the Object is a Character and/or there is a Villian, Character Dynamic comes into play: what is the Player''s relationship to either of these, and their relationship to each other? Perhaps the Villian fell in love with a woman and made her his slave. The Player could want to rescue the woman because he also loves the woman (making the villian his rival). Or, the Player could want to rescue the woman because she is his sister, or he owes her a debt. Or maybe the player is in love with the villian and wants to free the woman because she is his rival.

Now the Obstacle - this is often where physical space comes into the story. The player can''t rescue the woman because there is a physical barrier (a locked door, a guard, a long distance). Or the obstacle could be more abstract (the woman doesn''t want to be rescued, the Player doesn''t know where the woman is, the law says the woman is supposed to be the villian''s slave...) Now, the DM has to think of one or more ways each obstacle might be overcome and provide the necessary means, and hopefully the Player will find a way and overcome the Obstacle. And then the DM has to be able to recognize a victory condition and provide the player with the story''s resolution, or a complication extending the story.


Well, that was a lot of rambling... Summing up: there are three problems for us to solve here: 1) Make lots of lists of what goes in each category necessary to make a story. 2) Figure out in what order and based on what principles the DM should choose from the lists. 3) Figure out how to turn this into gameplay including narration and dialogue. 3 should probably wait till later, so you tell me which end you want to attach the problem from, 1 or 2. I personally think 1 would be easier - it''s easy to make lots of lists, and the categories that emerge will suggest the formulas and guiding principles we will need to describe for 2.


Does that seem like a good plan? Or are you thinking of a different plan?

i'm glad that someone take time with my "noodle" english
i'm moving to a video games school called supinfogame this years, then hope that idea to be implemented someday :D

when i wa talking about maslow ladder, it was because i think that there would be correspondance between tha ladder and the thematic element which output the LACK in the beginning of a story, but it's not ai it's story, i don't see the binary dm working with > theme element rescue level 3 :o!!
basically from maslow ladder we can have fear of loss or desire for obtaining in each level, the low level concern biological/survival need, then come security need, then relationan/sociologic need, then metaphysical/spiritual need
hm...
we need a thought around this, maybe the major class of theme is around obtaining or loss something (a state, an idea, an object, a satisfaction etc...)!

basically need hmay have some counterpart in story space

the SPACE is how to put data in the equation and the relation they have between them in this equation (hope that would make sense), physical space (as a data) however has little work about his fct in the equation, we need to learn more about both.
we know for ex what tied character to plot and plot to theme, we know that genre hold the template list, we know a lot of HOW but little WHY, hope this is more clear

i still think that there no randmness, however the lack of insight lead us to think that some aspect is andom become we cannot see the process which give the output
an example:
i have introduce my cousin to making game with rpgmk2000
since it's about rpg, he had to make a story (well in convention)
he start with a simple story but have trouble finding name and the kind, then we use a random name generator which has output list of name
the character of the story are all archetypal

good guy side:
klenn
gineo
hime
shah
kenko
bad guy side:
ossashaphal (soranae chaerussal)
shalak
phakaluma
nizor

you see?? there is clear bias while CHOOSING
i belief that subconsciuoly item has some value
i bet that your character would hardly have name like kolmogorov or leelaa parvarti shakti or worst ti fefene (creole taste)
we choose them with unconscious bias like the sound, the cultural taste, memorie or any other analogy,
we have built in bias from EXPERIANCE of life

for writing process i'm not going backward
but foreward, this is the process of hearing story and don't know what would happen next, then i'm surprise by my own imagination outcome, just like watching any exciting story
actually it's that experiance which leads me to binary dm

we should not focus on game play even in storytelling until we have raw material to feed them i think, we must narrow our focus on structure and how to attach data to this structure and the principle which lead to the choice

let's have a little resume about story theory
i beleive that story has a fct in the mind, a story purpose is to express something but WHY we need it to be express?
the idea is that story are like PATCH on our program (mind)
we feel lack of any kind and story provide JUSTIFICATION to support them by reducing tension from the push of the need, they did not resolve them but inhibit or reinforce them
that's why story must work by identification and turn around goal
because goal is the expression of the resolution of a need
wether the outcome is good or bad it's provide a satisfaction (which be a frustration) to the problem encounter, for ex i not pretty BECAUSE i'm not (ask any girl which underestimate herself)
by justification it's free the mind about thinking about it
then a story is like an EMOTIONAL demonstration of the conflict
(maybe we can predict the course of a story by finding structural equivalent in a mathematical demonstration, where is the argument, where is the operator, where is the end conditon which lead to a conclusion)
premise is no more than this, the conclusion of the demonstration
>>> love never fade through time or love is destructive are some of the outcome that the story will try to demonstrate (then must pass through any developpement which represent case)

isn't this cool??

resume: focus on structure and how the structure help the goal of a story (the why)

EDIT:
let's make a starting point to focus on one thing at the time
>i have made some mind testing of the process, i'm a visually person then my mind output an anime metaphor of the process
ok i lauch the binary dm, now processing
he randomly choose a thematic
from the thematic he output appopriate character and fit them into role in the story (they're caracteristic is choose according to their role (story fct) and their thematic fct)
the binary dm output the argument flow of the emotion demonstration and arrive at some conclusion according to initial state data of the thematic conflict
ok all that have been thinking as been implemented
i lauch the rendering
CRASH
oups my mind has a problem
the rendering as show the hero in a village....
hey where we have rendering this???
what the fct ?? what the purpose? why it is like this and not like this??

it's clear that we lack detail about physical space in the story space process

conclusion:
in order to begin let's fill the hole of the story structure
let's think about fct of physical material, like space and object
it's seems that our generator provide the mind aspect of the story but fail to link the abstract to the concrete (aka object different of character, body aspect of character is in the like too we only have the mind aspect of character)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - neoshaman on March 21, 2004 11:36:47 AM]

maybe somewhere to start is to study cliche, they are piece of work that have prove their utility but was over use, we may find how the "mind" is reflect in the set

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>