It has been my experience that when game designers think of building a team and making a game, they always imagine themselves as the lone designer on top of the heap. Why is this? Do they really feel qualified to design a whole game by themselves? Perhaps this would work for a smaller game, but for an RPG with 60 gours of gameplay? An adventure game with perhaps a hundred puzzles all of which should be unique and creative? Not to even mention an MMORPG with a multitude of NPCs each of which need their own personality and story, several races each of which need their own history, probably a pantheon and a magic system... I''ve been doing game design for 4 years now, I am a semi-professional writer and my art has improved a lot, yet I would never consider trying to run a large game design project without some other skilled designers by my side. So I go looking for designers to team up with, I''m willing to be flexible in creating a game concept that includes the others'' ideas, but I can''t find anybody who''s interested, they all have their own apparently compelling visions that they want to follow alone. So why do you suppose this is? Is it that the game idea and commitment to it comes first, and persuing this makes the person a game designer? Is it that people only create game design ideas cooperatively when they''re friends IRL and can talk to each other face-to-face? Or what?

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
So I go looking for designers to team up with, I'm willing to be flexible in creating a game concept that includes the others' ideas, but I can't find anybody who's interested, they all have their own apparently compelling visions that they want to follow alone.

This wouldn't happen to be directed at me, would it?

Anyway, I think designers don't cooperate because if you bring seven people, each with their own likes, dislikes, hobbies, preferences, et cetera, you're going to have a conflict of seven points of view. This also happens if you give them something to base their own project on.

It'd be much better if you brought a group of people together and said, "What do you want to make a game about?" and then go from their. This way, you could improve the basis of the game equally and not have to work on someone else's project.

[Edit: Added second and third paragraph.]

[edited by - orionx103 on March 12, 2004 10:32:14 PM]

It''s my opinion that a lot (but definitely not all) of the non-professional "game designers" are prima donnas who have an idea but can''t program and want to boss people around until they make it.

Perhaps that''s what I get from my lack of experience (I poke around in the For Beginners section a lot, as well as the Lounge, but not much here, and most people I know and respect who are designers are also programmers).

I guess you just have to look harder for better people.

Resist everyone
I am your only friend. Click here for more information. (MOVED)

quote: Original post by orionx103

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
So I go looking for designers to team up with, I''m willing to be flexible in creating a game concept that includes the others'' ideas, but I can''t find anybody who''s interested, they all have their own apparently compelling visions that they want to follow alone.

This wouldn''t happen to be directed at me, would it?

Anyway, I think designers don''t cooperate because if you bring seven people, each with their own likes, dislikes, hobbies, preferences, et cetera, you''re going to have a conflict of seven points of view. This also happens if you give them something to base their own project on.

It''d be much better if you brought a group of people together and said, "What do you want to make a game about?" and then go from there. This way, you could improve the basis of the game equally and not have to work on someone else''s project.

Lol, no, you would be the exception. That reminds me, I owe you a response to your email... I''ll get to that in a few minutes.

Well, I think that the conflict between different people''s ways of thinking is what can create an unusually rich and not one-sided game design. But how would you suggest one go about bringing a group of people together and asking them what they want to make a game about, if not by posting in the helpwanteds or using IRL friends? (I have an annoying lack of IRL friends into game design.) I would be happy to be someone else''s assistant designer, even, but designers never seem to go looking for teams until after their design is set in stone (or at least very stiff modelling clay ).

I have a major lack of friends into anything I like, period.

It''s doesn''t help that my school''s rather backwater. I mean, we have a high school of only fifteen and we get one bomb threat and we leave school for five hours. I mean, wow. You can''t get much more backwater than that, save maybe New Zealand. I mean, sheep don''t outnumber the people 3:1, I believe it is, here.

I''d think the best place to look for amateur partners would be gaming colleges, like DigiPen in Washington. At least there, if people don''t know what to do, they have a place to go and really learn.

It been my impression from 5 years of university that alot of computer people have extremely poor interpersonal, and teamwork skills. They find it difficult to work in a team because it means doing something diffrently then how they would do it. But I think that in order for a game to project or any group project to succeeded you need someone to lead and combine all the individual ideas.

I find the best design ideas come from brain storming sessions. Where group memeber share and dissucss their ideas for the project. Alot of times you arrive at a solution that you would have never thought of otherwise. However I have also had a lot of bad group experinces, lazy good for nothing group members, who even after the group decideds how to do something go and do it their own way.

I do agree that its extremely diffiuclt if not impossible for someone to do all the design work. There is simply to much to do even for a small project.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

Usually starting up with some designers and work your design from bottom up is a lot better than introducing your own (almost complete) design to others. It usually involves a lot of changes to your original game design, and probably other designers want something totally different than yours, so you end up dumping your design. Since you don''t want to dump your 10 months of designing, you persistently insisting other designers to accept yours.

IMHO, a person who can''t accept others'' opinion has a poor teamwork skill.

But I think the main reason why they do that is because they think their design is best design evar.

The problem with people working together is that if you have more than one person and not everybody agrees, somebody doesn''t get to create their vision. If you have several people that want "to make an RPG" or "to make a tactical FPS" etc, then it might work out ok, but if you have several people that each want "to make an RTS with my rules" then it doesn''t work and somebody ends up unhappy that their idea ends up getting thrown away in favor of a conflicting idea.

Since most amateurs seem to be teenagers (10-19) and teenagers don''t get along in general, it isn''t much of a surprise that they don''t get along in this specific instance either.

Hello, every society needs a leader, period. Design teams are no different in that respect. Although we all want to have things fair and the power/say to be equally divided that simply can''t work unless you REALLY have EQUAL respect and UNDERSTANDING with your co-designer/s. That being said even then it''s a hard accomplishment to have equal say in the design. Sometimes best friends can''t even pull it off. So the question is are you a leader? or a follower? sitting on the middle fence isn''t good enough. My best advice, is to describe which games are your most favorite? what design qualities do you think best embody (spelling?) you? etc...now find other designers with VERY similar answers to yours and that''s a really good start. Wish u the best.

-and the weak shall inherit the earth- isaeh 9:25

Hello,

If you take a look over inde development in general. It seems to me that more then 90% of the successfull products (including RPG's) were designed by one individual. The converse is also true in saying that less then 10% of the successfull inde teams had more then one designated designer. (thats not to say that others never gave input).

quote:
It has been my experience that when game designers think of building a team and making a game, they always imagine themselves as the lone designer on top of the heap. Why is this? Do they really feel qualified to design a whole game by themselves? Perhaps this would work for a smaller game, but for an RPG with 60 gours of gameplay? An adventure game with perhaps a hundred puzzles all of which should be unique and creative? Not to even mention an MMORPG with a multitude of NPCs each of which need their own personality and story, several races each of which need their own history, probably a pantheon and a magic system...

Please google for Richard Garriot.
Ultima I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VIb, VII

Also, you may want to check out spiderweb software, it was also a one man show
Exile, ExileII, ExileIII, GeneForge, GeneForgeII, and a couple others.....

Please dont take this as a slam to your post SunAndShadow, I more then respect your opinion, just backing my view.

EDIT: It should be noted that the need in an MMORPG is not really multiple designers, but alot of content creators. The overall goal/design of the game should be achieved before the game has been in existance. Unless of course you are planning one of those dream MMORPG's (Do and be anything... yea... right.... goodluck)

[edited by - paulcesar on March 13, 2004 2:54:06 AM]