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Original post by sunandshadow

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Original post by Genjix
what youre talking about is exactly what i was trying NOT to happen. We played around with many different stories but ended up sticking to the consiparacy because that was got the most WOWs!
For instance our first plot was about a woman who falls in love with someone over the internet(grid?).. except its not actually a person, its really a computer, a developed consiousness that is constantly moving throughout the network, and it was somehow in jepoardy and you had to save it. But that didnt really fit into a game, even for an rpg.

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Dude, that''s way more interesting than people being poisoned by their microwaves (is that even possible?).

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I have to agree with sunshadow. That is the kind of plot that hasnt been done to death before, and I think is very very cool. Cyber love story? HELL YEAH!

How about this:

The AI is advanced, but is contained in a system that does not allow it onto the grid. He learns about humans by watching videos. One day the scientists allow him to watch surveillance tapes to better understand humans, and he sees a woman who getting dumped. Over the next week the AI starts to self teach itself about love, something the scientists dont track. Maybe then have a cutscene where the AI goes to stupendous levels to access the grid, then cut to Lynns computer and a chat window pops up saying ''Hello Lynn.''

From here, maybe you could have it so that the AI gets pissed and tries to kill her. Maybe have it so that lynn has to SAVE the AI from the people trying to shut it down (now that its on the grid), maybe have it so that Lynn is one of the scientists. I dunno. If you wanted to go really far out, you could have them stuck on a ship or research station or something.

SnS : Err, that kinda sounds like hentai games to me

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Original post by boolean
The AI is advanced, but is contained in a system that does not allow it onto the grid. He learns about humans by...

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Or, how about the girl is one of the secretaries teaching the AI things (this could be the tutorial level of the game) but when the AI starts acting wierd around her the scientists fire her - so the AI has to figure out how to escape into the net and then find out where she is if he ever wants to see her again.



A different idea - you know how some book have chapters that alternate between the good guys'' perspectibe and the bad guys'' perspective? Have you ever seen a story where the player has to play both sides? Not that the player has a choice which side to play, buy where they have to play _both_. It would be an interesting way to spice up a linear game, I think. Wouldn''t work very well in a non-linear game - the player would deliberately play the bad guys poorly or something.

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Original post by sunandshadow
A different idea - you know how some book have chapters that alternate between the good guys' perspectibe and the bad guys' perspective? Have you ever seen a story where the player has to play both sides? Not that the player has a choice which side to play, buy where they have to play _both_. It would be an interesting way to spice up a linear game, I think. Wouldn't work very well in a non-linear game - the player would deliberately play the bad guys poorly or something.

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Suikoden 3 did this, sort of. It actually does have "chapters." You play three different parties, none of which are really the "bad guys"... but two are at odds with each other, for a while. Definitely linear -- you're not just playing the groups alternately, you're playing them simultaneously, in their timeline. You end up seeing certain cutscenes from multiple perspectives. They did interesting things with it, I think.

The writing is still not that great, overall. It has its moments, but if it were a book, I wouldn't be impressed.

[edited by - Logodae on March 4, 2004 1:14:40 PM]

Suikoden 3 did have a bad plot. If I had read that thing I wouldve thought it was a terrible book (especially the speech). I remember Suikoden 2 had as one of its 5 selling points ''Over 108 different Characters!!'', but each one barely had in part in the story e.g to get Zamza in your party you just have to get say to him you think hes crap and he''ll join. From then on he''ll say nothing, he''s just there.. in your team.
We''re talking here about not being cliched, but it cant be very good when we go overly over the top that we have to be original. The reason I dumped the idea is because the idea is to short, and impossible to make in framework from it. We were going to say that the player(s) teleported inside the Grid, to move around and would hence fight enemies inside there, but apart from it being overly unrealistic (not much of a problem), it would get a bit repitive after a while.
Well I might be wrong, after all Im not a writer im a coder. Please tell me how you can build a game out of this, not a book or an ''interactive'' movie (like ff8+). Collaborative writing between all of you?

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Original post by Genjix
The reason I dumped the idea is because the idea is too short, and impossible to make in framework from it. We were going to say that the player(s) teleported inside the Grid, to move around and would hence fight enemies inside there, but apart from it being overly unrealistic (not much of a problem), it would get a bit repitive after a while.
Well I might be wrong, after all Im not a writer im a coder. Please tell me how you can build a game out of this, not a book or an ''interactive'' movie (like ff8+). Collaborative writing between all of you?

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Lol, I think we have discovered an important secret about motivating writers - reverse psychology! You present an interesting idea, then say it can''t be done, and we all try to do it.

"The idea is too short" - No it isn''t. If there''s enough idea there for a whole romance novel, there''s enough for at least 30 hours of gameplay. Just need to add some setbacks and reversals.

Game framework - I wouldn''t say any players teleported anywhere - the AI lives in the net, so he would naturally be the one doing most of the fighting/puzzle-solving there. And the girl can do her fighting/puzzle solving in the real world to start with, and then you can have her jack in to a VR network where she and the AI can work together... lots of ways to do it.


My question to you is - what is the difference between a game and an interactive movie? I didn''t think there was that much difference between ff7 and 8 or 9, so I don''t see why 7 would be more essentially a game than the others.

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Original post by ahw
SnS : Err, that kinda sounds like hentai games to me

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Well yes, but you could do it in a non-hentai way too, both would be good.

Indeed, that''s what I was thinking.
Imagine a game like True Romance but with a bit more Oomph, a more defined goal, or engaging storyline, possibly as nice as Season of Sakura (IIRC).
No need to have gratuitous sex to make it good. But on the other hand, a bit of romance would definitely work well. As long as it''s maturely done (and here we cross with the other thread )
Add a bit of fighting (anyone remember Cobra Island?) and you have got a nice blend of genres...

I always wondered why only the Japanese came up with such cool games as the Hentai stuff. It''s not like geeks here dont think about women (can anyone say Lara ?), so what''s the difference ?

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Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

Romance novels tend to concentrate purely on feelings, thats how they manage 300+ pages, films can also talk about feelings as expressions and emotions can be expressed. Its not simply the point of saying "Yeh, the girl can have a bit of fighting here .etc", there needs to be some sort of framework set up around this. I think this has the potential for a short game, but I cannot see how it could fit into soemthing drawn out (especially since games deal with physical aspects rather than concentrating on emotional side as that what a game is, controlling a character).
Final Fantasy 7 was ''no more'' of a game than any other game, it was just a better game than final fantasy 8. If youve ever completed Final Fantasy 7, you could see that they way the game was structured was so amazing, that you felt part of the story. Some of the things they did actually made you feel part of what was happening. Final Fantasy 8 on the other hand felt like an interactive movie with its tons and tons of boring uninteresting monologue, and cut scenes every 5 minutes. The game had the best graphics, but the style of the game felt too ''cheesy'', and as such it was very uninteresting and boring. The plot twists were also boring, and I didnt feel anything when I found out Eden was controlled by Ultimecia (someone we''ve never before met... wowweee).
Compare this with Final Fantasy 7 on the other hand, you have Aeris death (which was the saddest, biggest shock I have ever got in a game) and Sephiroth. One of my favorite parts of the game is when you get Cloud telling the story and you get to play him as a young man, when Sephiroth was in his team (I know its Zack but anyway). You get attacked by a dragon and when Sephiroth attack bar zooms up, and he attacks with such powerful attack comparedto you, it fucking amazes you how powerful and strong and everything he is compared to you even at that point in the game with your measly stats. Its the little things like this in games.
Anyway I could see the story as a potential for a book, or even a movie, but not a game.
The only thing I can see right now is if, the ai is somehow being repressed through fear, and its indanger because of some corporations who want to kill it the only way it can survive is to move constantly through The Grid (or whatever network). I also think I have a good plot twist (listening to what boolean said about causing more bad than good) if the player somehow frees the ai program from its network, and find out its actually trying to spread and cause havoc. Having the ai program act like a little child would also draw on the players feelings and make you feel more sympathy for it, rather than a love interest I think.
If someone could somehow build a more structured image and be able to show me how that could be used to make a game, I would be very pleased.
I do want to make something different, and new. A work of art.
:D

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Original post by Genjix
games deal with physical aspects rather than concentrating on emotional side as that what a game is, controlling a character

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Now that right there is a misconception. If you were talking about an arcade game I might agree with you, but you''re talking about an RPG, and along with adventure games RPGs are the least physical action filled, most emotional genre of game. Haven''t you ever played a hentai or ren''ai game like ahw and I were just talking about? They generally have no fighting at all, and most of the actual gameplay is making dialogue choices, giving presents, and sometimes solving puzzles (dialogue puzzles where you have to convince someone to do something more often than physical puzzles). Now if you did this for the romance part of the AI game (and the idea is _way_ stronger as a romance than if the AI were child-like), and you handled the fighting parts of the game with one of the standard RPG methods (Vagrant Story''s is my favorite, as I''ve said before in other threads), you should logically have a nice emotionally involving RPG.

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Final Fantasy 7 was ''no more'' of a game than any other game, it was just a better game than final fantasy 8. If you''ve ever completed Final Fantasy 7, you could see that they way the game was structured was so amazing, that you felt part of the story. Some of the things they did actually made you feel part of what was happening. Final Fantasy 8 on the other hand felt like an interactive movie with its tons and tons of boring uninteresting monologue, and cut scenes every 5 minutes. The game had the best graphics, but the style of the game felt too ''cheesy'', and as such it was very uninteresting and boring. The plot twists were also boring, and I didnt feel anything when I found out Eden was controlled by Ultimecia (someone we''ve never before met... wowweee).
Compare this with Final Fantasy 7 on the other hand, you have Aeris death (which was the saddest, biggest shock I have ever got in a game) and Sephiroth. One of my favorite parts of the game is when you get Cloud telling the story and you get to play him as a young man, when Sephiroth was in his team (I know its Zack but anyway). You get attacked by a dragon and when Sephiroth attack bar zooms up, and he attacks with such powerful attack comparedto you, it fucking amazes you how powerful and strong and everything he is compared to you even at that point in the game with your measly stats. Its the little things like this in games.
Anyway I could see the story as a potential for a book, or even a movie, but not a game.

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I''ve actually completed FF7 twice, the first time because I was playing it, and the second time because my little brother wanted to play it, but he was only 7 or 8 so he wanted me to read the subtitles aloud and take care of the equippage and other strategic stuff for him. FF7 is certainly one of the best RPGs ever made. Notice, BTW, that the examples you just cited to demonstrate why it''s great are _emotional_ ones. If I was going to list strengths of FF7 I would first mention the subgames such as the fight on the motorcycle and defending the phoenix nest. Then I would list the choice of more adult themes such as the fall of the city plate, the death of aeris, and the part where cloud is catatonic and in a wheelchair; - these adult themes are the reason why FF7 was able to evoke so much more emotion in the player than the average RPG. Another important strength I would list for FF7 is that it had a reasonable number of playable characters and developed all of them well, giving them strong (emotion based!) motivations and personal histories, and both comic and serious aspects so they weren''t one-sided. (Except the easter egg ones like Vincent, but I guess they don''t count). And I suppose the final strength of FF7 was its beautiful FMVs.

FF7 had some weaknesses too of course - too much of the game was spent fighting monsters, IMO. I got really sick of it at points. I personally though the game was a bit too long, although that could have been solved simply by removing about 30% of the fighting. And the environmental philosophy was a bit heavy-handed and cheesy. And the ending was totally underexplained.

Anyway, if we''re going to use FF7 as a model for this AI romance game idea, let''s do that. The first thing to realize is that FF7 is mostly composed of little episodes, often confined to a location to make the puzzles easier and make it more clear where the player was expected to go next. This was a good thing, and the few episodes of FF7 that aren''t like this were some of the weakest in the whole game. So let''s list some episodes we might have in our AI love game:

- The girl is interacting with the AI, the AI starts paying too much attention to her, and the scientists cut off their contact. (tutorial level and some puzzles; like Cloud finding his way into the rebel gang and the initial info about his relationship with Tifa.)

- The AI must break out into the net to look for the girl (first dungeon/boss; equivalent to blowing up the Shinra reactor)

- Now the AI is in the network and has to figure out how to use it and act within it so he can stay alive and find the girl. (the more advanced tutorial level, some puzzles; equivalent to learning to use materia and limit breaks.)

- The alarm is raised, security programs or maybe a human hacker are set to hunt the AI and they have their first run-in (dungeon and boss two; equivalent to the first run-in with the Turks)

Notice that we have a nice little pattern of alternating story/puzzle and action segments so the player doesn''t get bored?

- Okay now it''s time for the girl to be the main character for a while. She should be angsting over not getting to play with the AI anymore when wham! real-world problems smack her. What could this be? Well, it could be that the scientists, when they found out about the AI''s escape, decided to grab her and try to use her as bait to capture it again, but I think we should save that for a little later. So what elso could it be? Well we could have an evil stalker ex-boyfriend for the AI to look like a good romantic interest in comparison to. Or we could have the AI''s escape accidentally have caused big blackouts and things, and the girl could be trapped in the middle of, say, a mall or, better yet, an amusement park, and have to solve puzzles to get inactive machinery to work so she can escape. Anyone have any opinions about this?

I''ll stop there with plot episode ideas because I want to hear other people''s ideas. But tell me if that''s the kind of game structure you mean, since I''m still not quite sure what you mean by that phrase.