Computers can''t be alive, maybe we can build some life in the future, but even thinking of todays computers as having a possibility for life is stupid. Youre sitting by a advanced screwdriver, nothing more, it''s just a TOOL for datamanipulation.

What makes you think a dolphin doesn''t have a soul ? I am not religious - in fact I am an atheist - but I do believe it is possible that there is such a thing as a soul, but if there is, it is something natural that obeys laws and I think that dolphins and all other creatures have souls too.
One more thing : life also includes self-awareness.Can we simulate that ? And can a computer have emotions, that are not pre-programmed - new emotions ?
I think not.
I hope not...


This Day All Gods Die

JOL, _WE_ are a tool for data manipulation.

quote:

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Original post by ImmaGNUman

Everything can be mathematically described, with the right output tools, such as a monitor, printer, etc.

Forget that, it''s not true. Try to describe the neverending
evolution process in a formal way. And even if you can describe
something formally, it is not granted that you are able to
formulate an algorithm and code it.

For example:
You can describe mathematically what a correct program is,
but in a next step you can prove mathematically that there
is no algorithm to get that all automatically done, since in some
cases you need still "human intuition". That is the moment when
those fantastic "program verification tools" prompt and ask
the user to make some decisions.
(To choose the right invariants to prove the termination of a loop for example.)


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A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

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But new scientific tests showed that persons "with half a clue"
are more successfull and tend to live much longer.

cu

Peter

Being new here, and being a Mormon, I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

I believe in the soul. It''s what sets us apart from the rocks. It''s not what gives us intelligence, though. Computers don''t have a soul, and never will (like the rocks), but intelligence is the gathering and application of knowledge. That''s what computers do. They process. Wisdom, on the other hand is the effective or proper application of intelligence. This is the trick. Any computer can observe and record, but reacting appropriately is what AI is all about.

The key here is simulation. We want to simulate intelligence. Make the entities act like they are truly independent beings.

OT: We don''t want to impose our beliefs on anyone (speaking in general, though there are unfortunately exceptions). I have an unshakable knowledge of God and his love and plan for us, and it has brought me great joy in life. You can''t blame me for wanting to share that. I served as a missionary for two years in Germany, so I know what people think of Mormons and their proselyting. Believe me, you have as much a right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want as I do.

Pax

quote:

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What makes you think a dolphin doesn''t have a soul ? I am not religious - in fact I am an atheist - but I do believe it is possible that there is such a thing as a soul, but if there is, it is something natural that obeys laws and I think that dolphins and all other creatures have souls too.
One more thing : life also includes self-awareness.Can we simulate that ? And can a computer have emotions, that are not pre-programmed - new emotions ?
I think not.
I hope not...

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I think a lot of what is being discussed here is semantics. I think the word ''soul'' means different things to different people. Dolphins could have a soul for all i know.
People seem to be using the words ''soul'' or ''life'' or ''intelligence'' or ''wisdom'' to try to describe an un-definable something that makes us human. I used the words ''self-awareness'', but i think we are all trying to put words to something we cant quantify. Until we can quantify (scientifically measure and understand) the soul (replace with your chosen word), i agree that it is impossible to reproduce on a computer. It is a gap in our knowledge (as humans) that we try and express with ephemeral concepts and words.
But i agree with the guy i quoted, that we wouldnt really want to produce a computer with a ''soul''. Wouldnt we then have to recongnise that we''d created a new ''species'' and assign it rights like (we try) to do to the other species that inhabit our planet? How would we cope with half our work force (our computers with souls) going on strike until we recognise the rights of the ''dumb'' computers? Would we then have to commit genecide to regain control? Where does that leave us morally?
Deep.

> Atleast not on a computer. Life is so much more then just DNA and molecules and stuff. Life has a soul. And a soul can never be created.

You didn''t exist before you were born. Hence you didn''t have a soul.
You exist now.
Since a soul can never be created, by your own logic you do not have a soul.

> One more thing : life also includes self-awareness.

Is a virus self-aware ? I do not think so, but virus are a form of life.

> The key here is simulation. We want to simulate intelligence. Make the entities act like they are truly independent beings.

Ah, but i think there is a problem here. If we simulate intelligence so perfectly that you cannot distinguish it from true intelligence, is it still a simulation ?

> Computers can''t be alive, maybe we can build some life in the future, but even thinking of todays computers as having a possibility for life is stupid. Youre sitting by a advanced screwdriver, nothing more, it''s just a TOOL for datamanipulation.

If you are speaking about human life, that i agree. But couldn''t a form a artifical life exist ? What characteristics must an entity have to be "alive" ? No, i don''t think it is related to intelligence. No, not either to self-awareness (cf. Virus/plants). Have you never been surprised to see the amount of similar things between a true human neuron, and a little set of AND/OR electronic components ? It is not as complex, and that''s why i do not believe a computer is "alive". But increase the complexity by millions.. like Internet... It is a huge set of computers all communicating. I''m not saying it is, but if Internet was becoming, one day, "alive", will we be able to detect it ?

Y.

What, What, What??? What did you mean I didn''t have a soul before I was born? That''s 100% False, I had a soul, that came from heaven, God, another life or what-ever. BUT I had a soul.

My soul is who I am, my body and mind I use.

So you were in Heaven for millenia, then suddenly you were on Earth for 70 odd years and then what? Then you go to Heaven or Hell and that''s it.

Wait for ever, then a short test then eternity either back where you came from or burning ever after.

Makes no sense to me.

Mike

Before we go deeper into religion let''s stop for a second and open up our minds a little.

What if your thinking is more complicated than it seems? Try to imagine the part of you that makes desicions. What if your brain itself is blinding you from what your brain is really thinking. Then you wouldn''t know if you were really feeling pain or happiness. All you would know is that you are real and can''t be recreated. What if your brain is feeding this information into you? Then the part that makes desicions gets blocked somehow. It''s all really complicated, but if you think about it, it''ll makes sense.

I''ll try to explain a little better if I remember to come back to this post.

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Captured Reality