Uhhh, not so fast there Tex. Have you noticed the rate at which computers get better/faster/whatever?

A thinking, alive computer is not that far away.

MikeD>>>

No one really have any facts on that. I just wrote something to try to get you all to understand. I didn''t mean that I came maybe from heaven and then again will go to heaven(or hell )

This is a hard topic to discuss. I belive that our brains aren''t advance enough to understand it. Maybe we hold the knowledge of what happened before life on Earth, and what will happend after.

We will just have to see.

Go to: www.spiritonline.com - and ask them. They know more.

You are all missing the point. Let''s say I proposed the theory that all movement of matter was caused by magical spirits, but these spirits just happened to behave in a way that exactly matched the known laws of physics. They are also completely undetectable in any way. The question is, are the spirits real? And the answer is, there is no way to determine whether they are real or not, so it doesn''t matter. Sure, they are real, we call them Relativity. It''s just a different way for a human brain to understand the same phenomenon.
The same logic can be used with a soul. There is no way to determine whether a soul exists or not. So it doesn''t matter. It is just a personal belief. Either way, you are describing the exact same behaviors/phenomenons. If an AI behaves in a way that is indistinguishable from a human, then for all intents and purposes, it has a soul. You cannot prove or disprove that which cannot be detected; therefore, its existence or noexistence will change nothing and means nothing.

FallingFrog

Based on the descriptions you gave us, does an animal (not your ex-girlfriend type animal) have a soul?

------------------------
Captured Reality

Wiccas belive that everything has a soul. Even rocks. Check out:
www.spiritonline.com , there are people who perform magic. And it works. I''ve tried it, it works. If magic works. There most be something more to life. Like i.e. a soul.

quote: Original post by pax

Being new here, and being a Mormon, I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

I believe in the soul. It''s what sets us apart from the rocks. It''s not what gives us intelligence, though. Computers don''t have a soul, and never will (like the rocks), but intelligence is the gathering and application of knowledge. That''s what computers do. They process. Wisdom, on the other hand is the effective or proper application of intelligence. This is the trick. Any computer can observe and record, but reacting appropriately is what AI is all about.

The key here is simulation. We want to simulate intelligence. Make the entities act like they are truly independent beings.

Soul idea, quite believable, but I still believ that a simulation of intelligence (this is what we are talking about) is independant on souls. Soul-less creatures can still act in intelligent ways (from my occult side here ) they just aren''t motivated to do good things... only evil .

quote:
OT: We don''t want to impose our beliefs on anyone (speaking in general, though there are unfortunately exceptions). I have an unshakable knowledge of God and his love and plan for us, and it has brought me great joy in life. You can''t blame me for wanting to share that. I served as a missionary for two years in Germany, so I know what people think of Mormons and their proselyting. Believe me, you have as much a right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want as I do.

Pax

Still OT, You can share what you want with who you want, as long as you understand that your beliefs aren''t for some. Christianity was a completely corrupt sect! I had to live as a Catholic for years, dispising the very religion which I was a part of. I know that all religions have their downsides, but at least if you don''t have a religion - there are no religious wars. Just wars then . I have nothing against people who believe that they have found something, it may be something great for them, but it is nothing for me. I will remain an atheist until I have made some decision. But most people I know can''t stand Mormons or Scientologists (not that I have a grudge against either, I just dislike certain practices ). Then again, a lot of the people I know are Baha''Is .




-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

Check our site:
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made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)

quote: Original post by MindWipe

Wiccas belive that everything has a soul. Even rocks. Check out:
www.spiritonline.com , there are people who perform magic. And it works. I''ve tried it, it works. If magic works. There most be something more to life. Like i.e. a soul.

I agree... it DOES work... It may not be the kind of magic that you would impement in a game (with phenominal lightening blasts) but it is magic all the same. I am also one for meditation, truly relaxing and much better than sleeping (which I haven''t had much of lately ... Diablo II)

This seems to be getting OT now though, Soul or no-soul, we can still make a reasonably intelligent computer. Have you played against bots in Unreal Tourny or QIII: Arena? Quite fun. There is also programs around that can understand your sentences (relatively complex ones) based on information that you give it (also in the form of sentences). It mimics a form of conversation quite well. It answers the questions you give it nicely . AI is definitely possible, with or without a soul in mind.


-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

Check our site:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/
Check out our NPC AI Mailing List :
http://www.egroups.com/group/NPCAI/
made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)

Mindwipe, I find your need to believe in something unknowable a little unsettling. Magic is by defenition something that contradicts the laws of science- but that is nonsense since the laws of science by defenition explain everything. Of course, current science definitely does not explain everything- but the point is that if magic existed, it would have to be part of the universe and therefore follow some kind of rules. And if it followed rules, it would probably be duplicatable- perhaps even in a computer. So, the point is even IF a soul existed in such a way that it was observable, it would duplicatable and therefore just another part of the physical universe- not some kind of mystical power. And if it were that, most people would stop considering it a soul.
So you have 2 choices:
1. Souls are undetectable, and therefore any statement of whether or not they exist is meaningless, or
2. Things have souls, but their effects are understandable and physical and are therefore not magical or special in any way.

FallingFrog

FallingFrog, I agree.It is quite possible that there is a soul, but in that case it is part of the univese and follows certain laws -maybe we cannot understand them, but they are still laws.
That means that maybe we could create souls.MAYBE.Maybe a soul can''t be created on a computer (but through cloning ?).
But this is really not all that important for us as game developers.We just want to create software/NPCs/etc that behave in a realistic way.

This Day All Gods Die

I think of the whole soul thing this way:

Take the Matrix

Metaphorically, the physical world is the computer simulation, and souls are the real bodies of the people.

From within the matrix, the fact that you were not in the matrix was undetectable, it was a closed system.

As for the detectability of a soul -- Being not part of the physical world it''s not detectable with physical means, but because our consciousness is derived from the soul, it is our consciousness which can explore it''s nature, ie, introspection, meditation, etc, etc.

Personally the idea that the physical world could create conciousness just doensn''t gell with me, and all I really seek to show here is that there can be a rational basis for the belief in the existance of a soul.

Namely, that because we "experience" our consciousness "before" the physical world, what''s to assume that it''s the latter (physical world) that generates the former (consciousness)

PS - By Soul, I mean seat of consciousness apart from the physical world. A better word is probably "spirit", but hey.

Sam
Space Cadet''s DJ Random, Thinker, and Geek at heart.