Most RPGs are based on character skill. Most FPSs are based on player skill. Is it a good idea to integrate the two successfully? Character Skill Character skill is based not on the player on the computer, but the character inside of it. A game with character skill determines the outcome of an encounter by having the character encounter the challenge, and the outcome is based on the character''s skill, not the player''s. This is the premise of conventional RPGs. If the character wins, then he gets a little better. The character advances throughout the game and gets better and better. Player Skill Player skill is solely based on the skill of the person playing the game. This is the premise of most FPSs, and a ton of other games. The character in the game is completely generic, and it''s up to the player to win in an encounter. Since it''s based on the player''s skill, the player will most likely get better with more experience. So do you think there could be a hybrid in an RPG, or any other genre for that matter? I know it sounds like a simple idea, but there are some complications. A lot of people who play RPGs and MMORPGs play them because they don''t have the reflexes to play other games. So would they want to play a hybrid? Most likely not. Also, say there''s a hybrid flying game. If I''m really good at landing the airplane in the game, it won''t matter because my character will suck so the plane will automatically crash. But if my character''s good and I''m bad, I can do a nosedive at the ground and my character will still land it. However, this might eventually even itself out if the game awards points to people who do really well but still lose. p.s. I should play the Warren Spector games, to see how he does it.

I think you''re right that RPGs focus on character skill, and FPSes on player skill. But I think it''s only the focus, and that most games are at least slightly hybrid.

In an RPG, you still decide how to explore a dungeon, which creatures to take out first in combat, what weapons to buy, etc. This is player skill. Giving the character godlike powers via cheating can alleviate some of a lack of player skill, but unless you know what you''re doing, the game can still be hard.

FPSes are less dependent on character skill. However, many have "carry throughs", where you keep items/skills between levels. In some sense, even items can count as character skills.

Think about some of the current games that are hybrids of RPGs and FPSes. They''re often realtime, relying on player skill (reflexes). But they''re RPGs, so characters are built up over time.

So yes, hybrids are not only possible, but I think they exist.

As to the problem of "player good but character sucks": in most character skill games, your character does initially suck, but as you play they get better. I would assume that a skilled player would see their character improve faster.

i view a combination of the two as natural, actually. either one by itself, and especially character skill, is a cop-out. i''m talking primarily about RPGs like dungeon siege, where you point, click, and your character goes through the motions. you and your opponent stand there for half a minute hacking away at each other, usually hitting nothing but air.

in the game that i''m designing right now characters can choose which moves to do when. the only combat procedures that are automatic are defensive positioning like circling around your enemy. it is then up to the player to know which keystrokes initiate which moves, and the character''s stats determine the extent of the damage. thus a poor player with a strong character is not necessarily any better or worse than a strong player with a poor character.

It is definitely possible to make hybrids. Like you said, check out Deus Ex by Warren Specter.


Also important to note is that there are basically two kinds of player skills.
The first one is the one you mostly use in FPSs and Diablo - the speed of your hand and brain.
The second is how smart the player is, which shows when he plays games that require a lot of thought and gives him a lot of time.

A game that requires none of these is called an "overly complicated dice game"

I think Deus Ex and NOLF 2 do this combining quite well.

I have thought a lot about whether emphasis on player skill would work well in an RPG.
But for the RPG/hybrid game I''m currently designing, I chose to have the focus on character skills as it will keep the presentation as simple as possible (2D, with an almost iconic representation of the game world). But it will also require the other kind of player skill that Srekel mentioned: intelligence. I''m hoping to create simle to understand but deep game rules that will give the player a lot of different options and paths.

The reason that rpgs use characters skills and FPS use player skill is because of gameplay. If you wanted to incorpate player skill into an RPG you''d have to play it in completely diffrent manner, the battles would have to be real time for a start. One way that it might work is if battle where fought like in fighting games. Player skill and charcter skill smilar to a scale. If you increase one then you have to decrease the other.

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Its actually easy to merge both player skill and character skill provided you make some smart provisions for both to overlap and cover each other''s weaknesses. I''ll use Deus Ex as the example. In it, theres a character skill for Hacking computer terminals. For the player, using nanotechnology to interrupt the flow of data and hack into the doctor''s email account is probably difficult, if not impossible. A character skill here reduces it to pressing the hack button on your keyboard or gamepad, and then watching how much time is left while you do your dirty deeds. Then there is handling autoaiming with the sniper rifle. Real life range estimation and having a steady hand is REALLY hard, and probably couldn''t be done without a Logitech Wingman with the little gravity ball or something. Character skill saves the day again.

Granted though, there are some issues that arise once you start a character skill system, how far does it go into alleviating the player''s responsibilities, in which case, I''d recommend catching what the controls can''t cover. Reloading a pistol, or its a nicer game, being able to pick two-pin locks or make good tasting coffee.

quote: Original post by tuxx
Most RPGs are based on character skill. Most FPSs are based on player skill. Is it a good idea to integrate the two successfully?

I thought Diablo II utilized this well. There was your character skill (obviously explained), and then the player skill. This is easily demonstrated with the sorceress I had. I use to duel with her and my strategy was to just teleport around the person doing Frozen Orb . When my friend used my sorceress, he really sucked at it. He would just run around planting Hydras, and then get his ass kicked. Therefore, Dialo II demonstrates a great utilization of requiring both character skill and player skill.

(Groan... ) This is at least the third time I''ve seen one of these...

A game must require at least some player skill, otherwise the game is probably not going to be much fun. However, character skill, while not as essential to the concept of a game , can be quite fun to watch grow, and can act as a sort of semi-orderer to an apparently non-linear quest-based game (i.e. if you take on Beholders before level ten, at the very least, you will probably die, no matter how high your skill as a player is.).

As far as I''m concerned, Deus Ex has the best synthesis of both that I''ve ever seen. Nearly everybody else has mentioned this game, but all of us probably would have mentioned it even if those before us hadn''t. Deus Ex''s combination of character and player skill is truly amazing. It must be experienced at least onec in a gamer''s life time.

"Ph''nglui mglw''nafh Cthulhu R''lyeh wgah''nagl fhtagn!" - mad cultist, in passing

Ah, Deus Ex. Gaming bliss.



Anyway, it really depends on the game what the mix turns out to be, and I definatly wouldn''t use the genre box to decide. I hate the genre box, grrr. If you want the game to be more player skill based, focus on that, but as was mentioned before, even the weapons you carry is part of the character skill element in a fps. If you want the game to be character skill based, focus on that, but make sure to have ENOUGH player skill involved to keep him feeling in control, and feel like his actions have meaning.

Don''t make progress quest when focusing on character skill!

Another issue with combining player skill and character skill is if they don''t quite match up. One example is Neocron. When I heard that this game had a point and shoot interface similar to a shooter, I was excited. But each battle was totally won on my characters attributes. Don''t let the player aim and shoot when they please when in reality they are still relying on when the character has the gun ready, and relying on the characters aim.

Good synthesis results in games like Deus Ex, bad synthesis results in, well, something bad lol.

The other key issue is that the game has to be designed with the system in mind, but that is true no matter the system, whether we are talking about skill, interaction, or whatever. If it doesn''t fit throw it out.