I agree with Paul, taking stats out is not the answer you are looking for. You can do that kind of development with stats (go to the gym to increase str and sta, library to increase int, whatever...). Taking stats out actually limits YOU, the developer, because you have less things to test against the player. It will become either a puzzle/adventure game or a reflex game (fps). The char will end up mattering very little in progressing through the game, unless you make fighting the progressing method (read: every other game on the market).

BTW, I was planning on using food in the game I''m working on now. And not in a way that heals your HP, either .

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"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

What i meant was about not removing the stats visually not altogther. I mean if you removed stats altogther then it''s not an rpg. I think this is the sad trueth about rpgs, all they are is a stat system for gamers.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

If you were to take out stats all together, what would be the advantage of being a muscular fighter over a scrawny fighter in combat, assuming that both fighters have the same skill levels? Clearly the fighter who is stronger would cause more damage. Unless you give extra skill points to characters who have good strength and other stats (which would be defeating your initial purpose of removing stats) there is no way to show the physical advantages of one character over another. This would detract from the roleplaying experience. If I was a scrawny fighter, I definately would think twice about fighting the big guy, even if I had trained with him in a class and knew that we were at the same skill level. However, with this system of being equal just because of skill would let the puny fighter possibly win. Now I know that all characters are not "equal" and sometimes the underdog wins. Now if skill was a combination of experience and strength and various other factors, two fighters with the same battle experience could easily have very different battle skill. I totally agree that skills are the way to go, but it depends on the implementation.

I also have a question about the whole roleplaying ideal. Why would it be wrong for a palidan to fire a bow? S/He must learn about his/her world because there are no stats, and how should s/he know whether he is good with a bow or not until s/he tries it? Also, if a mage has decent strength, why can't s/he wield a short bow? Clearly the mage has enough intelligence to think things through. If either of these two characters are not good at firing the bow, they would have less damage and accuracy and therefore discourage the player from doing the action, but should not just be prohibited to "enhance the roleplaying experience." In fact, this might just decrease the roleplaying experience.

Edited by - fat_tony_123 on August 7, 2000 12:41:39 PM

Stats aren''t required in an RPG.
Stats aren''t bad, they have just been done poorly.

Make a better stat system and you''ll have a better game.

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"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

Look at the arguments for having many stats in an RPG. First and foremost the example comes you can go build up your strength in a gym etc. Then comes the blatantly obvious "If I were a scrawny fighter" etc etc.

These are all violence based statistics which reflects on a violent game - which means there is obviously not much thinking involved in the puzzles anyway -> which means that the puzzles in the game aren't the focus. This is a major problem is that we aren't thinking beyond combat based experiences, hands up those who read the article on why games don't appeal to women - this is exactly why.

Games can be constructed so that they can appeal both to thinking side of a person as well as the violent side of the more simplistic male instincts. Basing combat on mere physical prowess is what's killing lots of games for me recently because combat is boring, we've all gone through combat a thousand and one times and it's no longer a suitable part of a good game, it's just dull.

RPGs have long supposed to fulfil this, the idea of playing a role means that you should be able to play out any kind of experience, violence or intellectually oreinted. Masculine or feminine. Think outside the square we are currently working in people because that's going to become a job requirement soon enuff and we might as well start some good habits.

Erg - I only just noticed pacman's signature - hehe.

Edited by - Maitrek on August 7, 2000 8:55:20 PM

Stats can be used for more than just combat and they usually are but the big problem is is how the general structure of the game is designed. (Violence in games) really has nothing to do with the fact that stats are in the game. It''s just bad game design to keep using violence to solve role playing elements. There definity needs to be more parleying in rpgs.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

quote: Original post by pacman

Stats aren''t required in an RPG.

Damn right, have the others forgotten my original post about story-based gaming, and what triggered it?

quote: Original post by pacman
Stats aren''t bad, they have just been done poorly.

That''s true as well, a good stat system is less annoying than a bad one, and can make for a certain kind of game experience that can be a lot of fun (dragon wars.)

quote: Original post by pacman
Make a better stat system and you''ll have a better game.

I''m sorry, but that just isn''t true, and you know it. With the best stat system in the world, you can still have a completely worthless game. A game is much more than just its mechanics, and I was hoping the multitude of topics here would have made you see this.




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Stats are definitely useful, but I believe in information hiding. You may as well go with a system that has been proven to work, but try to make it somewhat of a different experience for the player by removing the stat pumping that goes on... I think we have already been through this though

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Keith, I apologize. I was trying to post quickly, and I should have stated that differently.

A better stat system CAN make a better game.

Of course mechanics don''t make the game. However, people throughout this board have been blaming everything from the murder-based exp to the blandness and "it''s not a real RPG" on stats. This is not so, because, like you said Keith, the stat system doesn''t make the game. Ex: Daggerfall has a great stat system (at least advancement), but it''s still crap (so why do I still play it....).

I did want to say that if you design a game with a stat system that is done better and with some actual thought, AND all the other elements of the game are good, then you will have made a better RPG. This is of course, assuming that stats belong in your game, because I _really_ don''t want anybody to think that stats have to be in an RPG.

I say this last part because generally people associate themselves with their characters through the stats (and if stats aren''t present, their possessions). It''s a natural, although slightly twisted, way of relating to your character, because it''s something you can compare to the real world, and with more association comes more desire to play that role. Moving away from combat based stats (to make everybody happy ), example: "My char has a charisma of 16, that means he''s a pimp! All the ladies love him! And all the guys wanna either be his friend, or kick his ass for sleeping with their girlfriends!"

The above example is NOT going to run around killing everything, but he IS (assuming he is rewarded properly from the game) going to hang out in high class inns and taverns, and hit on chicks all day. It''s...who he is.

I hope that clears things up. I was in no way trying to say that a stat system makes the RPG. I apologize for any mix up.

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"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

I was thinking a little more about this, and I''m afraid I may still be misunderstood. I''d like to say something before there is any more confusion.

Stats are not required to make the game good. In fact, if everything else is done well except the stats, the game can still be good. With a deep and involving story line and memorable characters, the game can still be good even with the "standard" RPG stat system. Even though I haven''t played Xenogears, I''ve seen my brother play it, and it looks good. It''s got MBE and the "standard" stat system, but it still looks like a good game. Same with Chrono Trigger, but I did play that one.

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"What's the story with your face, son?!?"