I''d like some feedback on my skill system This is straight from my design doc: ----------- Skill system Class-free, which means that you won''t be limited in any way by your "profession". In fact, there are no professions at all. For example, in Neverwinter Nights, if you''re a thief you might not be able to use a two-handed axe, and if you''re a mage, you can only use staffs. (Actually I''m not sure this is exactly how it is in NWN, but you get the point.) Stats-free, which means that your characters chance to succeed will only be determined by your skills (and of course lots of other modifications), and not base stats like "Strength" and "Intelligence", which basically only serve to set the base values in your skills, and the derived stats (like hit points and action points). I do see a small point in having them, but in the end... I don''t think they''re really necessary. Ranks and Training Points (TP). The ranks are called Novice, Apprentice, Practioner, Expert and Master. If you''ve played Arcanum you might recognize this. There are no "points" (except for Training Points, explained below) in skills, which is common in other RPGs. There are three categories for skills: Ranged Combat, Body and Brain, and five skills in each category. If you use a skill, you''ll get a number of Training Points in that skill. The number is calcuated as "the inverse of the chance to succeed" if the skill test is successful, and "the inverse of the chance to fail" if the skilltest fails. If the number is greater than 1.5, it''s rounded up. If it''s smaller, you don''t recieve any skillpoints. There is a max limit of 10 TPs per try. I haven''t decided about this yet, but you''ll probably be able to try as many times as you want and can, but each time it will be 1% harder to succeed. (you''ll go from 5% chance to 4%) To advance from Novice to Apprentice, you need 300 TPs. To advance from Apprentice to Practitioner, you need 900 TPs. To advance from Practitioner to Expert, you need 2700 TPs. To advance from Expert to Master, you need 8100 TPs. This is cumulative, so to become a Master you need a total of 12000 TPs. For example, if there is a 60% chance that you will succeed with a skill test, you can either succeed and recieve 1/0.60 = 1.67 = 2 TP rounded up, OR if you fail, you recieve 1/0.40 = 2.5 = 3 TP rounded up. You also gain one third (1/3), rounded down, of that number of training points in the other four skills in the skill''s category. This system serves two purposes: If you are really good at something, you won''t learn anything from doing really basic stuff, and vice versa, if you really suck, you won''t learn from trying to do something that is way to difficult for you. You learn both from making mistakes, AND from solving a problem the correct way. This is a way to avoid an Expert becoming a Master in Communication because he walks around saying "hi" to everyone. Problem: How to avoid every character at the end having the exact same rank in Communication? When you go to someone that can train you in a skill, you will recieve benifits (usually, it will be cheaper) for having a lot of Training Points in that skill. This simulates that you actually learn something while out in the field. You''ll be able find trainers for the lower ranks of your skills easily. If you want a trainer to train you, he has to (1) be able to and (2) want to. Having a lot of Training Points in a skill doesn''t increase your chance to succeed, only how easy it will be for you to train in it. --------- Some of the things I hope this system will achieve: 1) People won''t do stuff that is incredibly simple just for that extra XP. (if you are extremely good at Science, you won''t have any problems picking simple locks, therefore you won''t get any kind of experience from it. Which is quite realistic in a way I think) 2) You learn from mistakes AND doing it right. Which is pretty cool imo Problems: - Coming up with percentage chances to succeed for every problem. This kind of needs to be done anyway, but the thing is that when a character shoots, it''ll be really hard to calculate how big the chance is that he''ll hit. The game is in 3D, and a higher rank in Pistol (for example) skill decreases the randomization of the angle of the pistol.... For example a Novice may have a random fire arc of 30 degrees, whereas a Master may have 2 degrees... Then the bullet will be fired along that path like in any normal 3D shooter. (Note that the game isn''t a 3D-shooter at all, it''s a Fallout-like game in terms of interface.) - Is five levels of skills enough? There are 15 skills, and I will try to make the different ranks not just a matter of "higher success chance". If you''re highly trained in close combat you learn new moves and so on. What do you think? Should TPs give some kind of added bonus? Will the player be frustrated when he thinks "I need 10 more TP to gain a rank, but I can''t see any locks to be picked around here!" ? - I guess the problem with everyone having the same skill level in communication at the end of the game is solved by having a system to generate unique characters (which I think I can actually do) and also make it necessary to find trainers and pay them to train you. Do you see any flaws with my system? Anything I haven''t explained properly? Any input is appreciated (sorry for the long post ) "Kaka e gott" - Me

Meh... it works. What sort of HP/damage scale are you using? Will HP rise to many times their starting levels, only several times their starting levels, or not at all? Just curious, of course... :D

It should work. Depends on how the playtesting turns out really.

If you want more ideas, this recently necroed thread has a lot of possibilities.

I think a good way to increase your HP is to buy items. Maybe an experience increaser, for your TP.

.lick

Well, I don''t use Health Points at all. I''ve designed a system that I think and hope is more realistic.

First,
Some definitions of wounds:

Small wound : A shotgun pellet from a long distance shot, or a knife slicing you.
Moderate wound : A bullet entering your body, making a nasty hole.
Serious wound : A close-range shotgun blast, a nearby grenade exploding.

Now, each part on a human (or whatever is attacked) has different effects based on the wound that it "recieves".

For example an Arm
Small W. causes one of these: Adrenaline rush, Worse Aim
Moderate W. causes one of these: Drop Weapon, Worse Aim
and Serious wound causes one of these: Drop Weapon, Worse Aim, Faint, Lose Limb


Each effect has a different chance of happening, the chance increasing with a more serious wound. On the other hand, the chance decreases with a better armor and also the more trained you are in Endurance.


Blood loss.
A character will have four values: His initial blood amount, how much blood he needs to function without problems, how much blood he needs to not faint, and how much blood he needs so he doesn''t die.

|DIES|------|FAINTS|----linear performance loss----|BLOOD LIMIT|---------|MAX|


Pain.
All of these wounds will generate a certain number of pain. Pain will have a number of consequenses for a character. Different characters may have different pain thresholds. Note: Maybe adrenaline rush should be one of these?





It''s a rather complex system, but I REALLY don''t think HP is a realistic measurement of how dead you are.


In this way, you won''t die because someone does 1 Damage a hundred times to you which is the case in lots of RPGs.
I understand the good stuff about HP systems, I just want to try something different, that actually simulates the way damage affects you in real life.


If you want to "increase your HP", you can train in the skill Endurance. Someone with a high endurance has a better chance to "simplify" a wound (go from serious to moderate) and will probably have some benifits when it comes to blood and pain as well (haven''t thought this far). Since I''m going for a more realistic system, a high Endurance won''t help THAT much.



"Kaka e gott" - Me

quote: Original post by Srekel
In this way, you won''t die because someone does 1 Damage a hundred times to you which is the case in lots of RPGs.
I understand the good stuff about HP systems, I just want to try something different, that actually simulates the way damage affects you in real life.

If you get hit hard enough to bruise enough times in a short enough time span, the accumulated toxic effects will send your body into shock, and even kill you.

That said, I think your system could work - again, it''s down to the playtesting and game balancing.

"The devil is in the details" - can''t remember where this quote''s from, but I''ve seen it used aphoristically.

Hehe
true... HPs are a good measurement and in a way kindof realistic, but honestly are there games out there that DOESN''T use a HP meter to represent health? (Ok Deus ex and more uses one for each bodypart, but...)

"Kaka e gott" - Me

If you''re looking for a real complex health system, try to diversify your injury types, and be wary of over simplifying things like knife wounds. I did a little work with a blood loss system not too long ago (That Western game we were discussing, which is in temporary remission). It''s tough to get it going, but it has a lot of promise. One of the porblems we ran into was that people don''t get more resistent to shotgun wounds with practice.

If your levelling can''t make you tougher, then you need to find other ways to be an invincible warrior. Quite frankly, no player can use a keyboard, mouse, or control pad to produce the diversity of actions needed to apply real-world sword/knife/gun fighting techniques. That''s what HP is all about.

Maybe the Syphon Filter (I Think) system would be worth looking into, where actual wounds do appropriate damage, but you have your James Bond luck, which guarantees that your enemies will miss the first few times that they should have hit you. If you try to Terminator your way through a gunfight, you''ll get nailed, but if you bounce from cover to cover, the bad guys won''t be able to hit you.

"If you're looking for a real complex health system, try to diversify your injury types, and be wary of over simplifying things like knife wounds."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there will be crushing wounds, penetrating wounds (bullets) and slicing wounds, and of course each of those will have unique Small, Moderate and Serious wound effects. I just haven't gotten quite that far yet


"I did a little work with a blood loss system not too long ago (That Western game we were discussing, which is in temporary remission). It's tough to get it going, but it has a lot of promise. One of the porblems we ran into was that people don't get more resistent to shotgun wounds with practice.

If your levelling can't make you tougher, then you need to find other ways to be an invincible warrior. Quite frankly, no player can use a keyboard, mouse, or control pad to produce the diversity of actions needed to apply real-world sword/knife/gun fighting techniques. That's what HP is all about."

Of course
I have some ideas for this.
First (and imo coolest ) are the moves. The game is played out in pausable realtime (perhaps it'll be able to play the game at half speeds at times too, similiar to Max Payne). This means that I want to be able to move my character with any moves I could do in real life. For example, diving of course, and leaning around corners with my back flat to the wall (like in Splinter Cell), kicking open doors and so on. Being able to use your character's body exactly like you want to should allow for some pretty cool tactics and action.

Secondly, it's in the "future", which means that there'll probably be very cool armors (armors... can you actually say armors?), for example jackets with built-in magnetic fields or something like that. I want players to prepare for fights and think before they start shooting. Not run inside a room, stand in the middle of it and start shooting at the guards surrounding you because you have more HP than they do....

Thirdly... I can't think of anything right now. Well, except for the nano-bots that "repair" your body, but I'm not sure on how they are going to work yet....

- EDIT: I'm not sure I made this clear, but I will design it so that the chance of hitting an enemy with a rifle or what-have-you has NOTHING to do with the player's speed or skills. Unless the player wants to play at real-time without pauses. But that won't be survivable...



"Maybe the Syphon Filter (I Think) system would be worth looking into, where actual wounds do appropriate damage, but you have your James Bond luck, which guarantees that your enemies will miss the first few times that they should have hit you. If you try to Terminator your way through a gunfight, you'll get nailed, but if you bounce from cover to cover, the bad guys won't be able to hit you. "

Heheh, no I definitely don't wanna implement something like that - even though I can understand the action-ish feeling about it


I believe that it's possible to use the element of surprise instead of that. If you kick in a door, gun ready, the guards on the other side will have a reaction time of a tenth of a second or so, which means you might be able to kill one of them before the other one even starts to draw his gun or throw himself behind a couch.



Heh, I realize implementing all these stuff (especially all the moves and the enemy AI) will be quite difficult.... But it HAS to be doable, and I would REALLY wanna see this in a game...





"Kaka e gott" - Me

[edited by - Srekel on March 30, 2003 5:21:37 PM]

Whoa wait a moment please, I thought at first you were making a MMORPG, but now I''m not sure. So this is a single player game with a Fallout Diablo perspective? I hope so if you plan to have a Max Payne (a la Matrix move system) You couldn''t otherwise implement a fair Real-Time for multiple users over the internet no matter what the connection. Secondly, if your character are the size ofr Fallout or Diablo sized Characters then slow mo moves are extremely difficult to see and execute.

Idunno, I prolly misread of imagined something wrong but I''m just kind of confuzzled here. No offense or anything. Anyways, is this going to be an action game or RPG cause you''re talking at first about a lot of RPG ideas then you go into real time movments, and controling every aspect of your character while slowly flying through the air. Perhaps you could clarify a little.

P.S. A website with your design would be nice place to post your system.