quote: Original post by Argus
I can see why that would be censored. Basically the weakest of facades is put over what is obviously intended to be a sexually stimulating scene. An android who just happens to look like a young nubile girl.. Who then starts moaning as an adult male in close proximity somehow finds it necessary to stick his hand into her..

No, the reason why it would be censored is just this. You interepreted it as meaning that, even if it wasn''t meant to be this.

In the west, I think we tend to add more weight to issues regarding sex so we interpret things as being sexual when originally they were not.

This country for some reason gets offended when you see a female's nipple, bush (beaver vagina clit ect ect..), or a male's penis. They try to *protect* children from seeing what the other sex is made of. Apparently they think if a 10 year old see's a vagina he will go into his room, never talk or come out again, never socialize in society and never grow up to become anything worth while.

I think its just maturity of the majority that comes to play. Take the alcohol views of Japan and America. Here the first time you really get into drinking, drugs, and sex (in school) is close to (or in) highschool. And even then its not discussed, a teacher stands up and says this is bad for you, here's a car crash, this can happen to you. And the sex education is pathetic.

Japan however teaches kids responsible drinking, they learn the dangers / affects of it at a young age, and are encouraged to stay away from it. Yet for some reason this country seems to just take normal everday topics and wait for people to turn 16 and then say hey - don't drink. Oops, maybe this will come to a shock but I know quite a few people who started drinking around 7th grade.

I'm not saying nothing is being done about it, drinking and sex is talked about to some extent in the school system but kids are babied nowadays. Hell why can't I see a damn nipple on tv? Whats so damn BAD ABOUT seeing nipples? The censorship is getting way, way out of control.

Oh well I now I'm just shouting gibberish, I don't think well when I'm mad, gimmie a break lol.


Oh to get back on the topic at hand. I don't believe in censorship at all. We live in a country with the freedom of choice. No one forces you to see, or hear anything you dislike. Therefor even if 99% of us don't like seeing (insert act of violence in a video game here) why censor it? Just cuase kids shouldn't see it? Who are you to say kids shouldn't be allowed to see it, as far as I know thats the parents job. And yeah at 14ish you can go out and by a Mature rated game without your parents being around but hell he/she's human making his own choices. Who's fault is it that the little 14year old is playing Mortal Kombat or GTA3? The parents for not checking up on him and being involved in his life, not being around. And parents instead of blowing up and taking it away just educate your kids about subjects so they understand differences from real violence and graphical violence.

Oh well I'm done with my ranting... I got off subject the first time.

[edited by - markadrake on August 13, 2003 8:21:57 PM]

Sorry, but I think you are too careless here.

>> Who are you to say kids shouldn''t be allowed to see it

There really are things kids (different things at different ages) shouldn''t see. If a six year old kid saw and looked through a playboy magazine, it most probably wouldn''t think of it as interesting. There, no harm.
But showing violence is very different I think. Kids can be really fragile when it comes to feelings. And if you are too careless then something you wrote could easily happen:

>> he will go into his room, never talk or come out again, never socialize in society
>> and never grow up to become anything worth while.

Ok, that''s a bit much, but it may come to complexes, minor or major. As for kids, it''s their parents'' job to not let it come to this, and there just has to be a mechanism they can rely on when it comes to media.
They just aren''t able to read every book, watch every movie and play every game their children want to have, so you can''t go completely without it.

Oh I know, a kid can get everything he/she wants, I really wasn''t different
And living with a non-zero probability that it might come to complexes is bad enough, but reducing the number certainly isn''t wrong ^^;

As for Xenosaga, replacing the scene probably secured the ''teen'' rating for the game. Would you rather like something like a 18up rating? (I''m not too familiar with the US rating system)
Well, everyone above 18 says yes, all the others cry no.
Producing and publishing a game means selling it also.
And in the case of Xenosaga (though I really want to see that scene) replacing the scene actually meant way more sales.

Releasing two versions could have been a way, but it''s not much change for another version and I guess that has been discussed at Namco. Well, nothing to do about it, but I guess the replaced scene can be downloaded somewhere

I feel bad contributing to the dredging up of this really old topic, but I had to throw my two cents in.

quote: Original post by rmsgrey
Also, there''s the question of how realistic a simulation of a human needs to be before it earns basic human rights.

It''s really interesting that rmsgrey said that because that very statement happens to be one of the underlying themes of Xenosaga, the game originally brought into question in this topic.

WARNING: Possible Xenosaga spoilers ahead

And having viewed only the censored version of the scene mentioned, I''m fairly convinced that the intent of the scene was to symbolize a rape, and that intent still seems obvious regardless of the censorship. The idea presented by the scene is that Albedo (the "rapist") is forcibly taking something intangible (in this case information, memories and the like) from MOMO (the android girl) through physical violation (electronically entering her "mind" in the censored version and physically rooting around in her stomach in the non-censored version). While I can see how the similarity to a rape is there, I also feel that that scene was very necessary for the plot of the game. Thankfully, the censorship exhibited in exporting the game didn''t compromise the artistic integrity of the scene. As it was I was rather admittedly disgusted and disturbed by the scene but not in the "Oh my God! How could they possibly let people see this?!" kind of way, but in the way I believe the creators intended it to affect the viewer.

END POSSIBLE SPOILERS

But I digress. In regards to censorship, I believe it has a lot to do with artistic value. As far as sex goes, my belief is that if a given item can be proven to demonstrate sexuality for purposes other than direct sexual arousal (eg: your average piece of pornography may contain artistic merit, but it''s express intent is to arouse, not to make you ponder whether Tawny''s choice of red nipple tassles is meant to subtly allude to Communism). The same cannot equally apply to violence because there is no real catch-all that can classify the reason behind gratuitous violence that seemingly has no artistic merit.

That''s just my views on flat-out censorship: the kind that bans the distribution of media that contain objectionable content. The concept more commonly mistaken for censorship - the classification of media into groups providing guidelines suggesting whether or not something would be appropriate to an average specimen taken from a distinct group of people, and the restriction of distribution of said media to those of groups deemed non-qualified for the consumption of the media by guidelines based on psychological generalizations of that group (mainly in reference to age) - is one I understand the need for and support, though am occasionally appalled by its horrendous flaws.

Hmm... Dear Lord that wordy and approaching legal-sounding...

Anyway, that was my two cents.

-Auron

My bad, I know I did jump when I started talking about this. I''ve gotten into the whole violence in videogames thing so much I don''t tend to say exactly what I mean when expressing my feelings.

By kid I didn''t really mean say 1 - 10, but more of the say 13 - 17 age range. My feelings are, towards violence in videogames and other entertainment that kids are exposed to, that censorship is a needless thing.

I do agree that keeping some of it away, and generally working your way up from say a teen to mature game, is a good idea. Just taking any 10 year old and exposing him to shooting guns and curse word in every sentence is going too far. But every parent should be there with their kids. Every game they play they should just take some time, sit down, and spend a moment playing it themselves. See why your kid likes the game, make sure to talk to them about violence and the human body, the use of foul language, blood, gore.

Instead of hiding these things, hiding body parts, hiding violence (won''t even get into the fact that news is sometime a ver violent thing available across cable tv... but oh well) take a different approach. I strongly agree with not allowing certain kids come in and by a Mature rated game, I understand that some violence goes too far or too much of it. But my mind is set that if parents pay attention and interact with their kids and these games, the whole violence in videogames problem would be solved.

The problem is kids can be influenced by many things. One being the things they see and hear, but this rate of influence deteriates the older you get... How the basic 10 year old and how the 14year old reacts to a Mature game is totally different. I don''t believe for a second that Mature games should be 18+, I think they should be more set near 14ish but be left up to the parents to decide, and maybe even to buy.

As for this Xenogears situation... As for any sexual activites that anybody could come across while playing a videgame... I don''t beleive in porn. My classification of porn is visual representation of intercorse, or oral sex. The sight / view of a nude body or the "scene" thats been cut from the game is just over-censorship. Its over-powered censorship, its really starting to get on my last nerve to tell the truth, I don''t understand what is so bad about ANY AGE of human being seeing the nude body.

I don''t think that it''s a problem for anyone to see a nude body, but the problem is mostly within society itself. In a world where sex sells nearly everything, the nude human body loses its artistic value and beauty and merely becomes objectified. If it could be taught more that a nude person is still a person with their own mind and not just there for sexual purpose, then it probably wouldn''t be that much of a problem.