Hey, Bomberman, I like your character. Seriously, I''m the same way. I''m determined, I will be a game programmer. But I don''t particularly want to go to college.

My situation might be a bit different, I''m not sure. I get good enough grades to get a scholarship (I''m NOT bragging) but I don''t really plan on having a family or anything, so getting paid a whole lot more doesn''t mean much to me. If I''m comfortable, I''m fine, and I don''t think low-end for programming jobs is very low-end.

I personally don''t want to go to college because I''m sick of the educational system with it''s ideals of being "well-rounded" and having to take classes you''re not interested in (such as foreign language classes). And I don''t really feel like spending my time in school when I could be coding real games.

Anyway, I''m not saying this unbacked.. I went to this game company last summer to interview the owner and the head programmers, designers, and artists for a class I was taking in summer school (not a repeat class ). The owner was telling me that when she''s hiring, she does a quick interview to see if she judges potential, then hands the candidate over to the lead programmer/artist, or whatever department the person is applying for. They get tested, and approved or not. They don''t look at degrees AT ALL. In fact, the lead programmer (who has no degree, and makes about $90,000) said something to the effect of "lots of college graduates who come here end up not being able to code fast enough, or good enough. They leave and work on spreadsheets and stuff." That''s to say that degrees can be untrustworthy...

Now, I''m not saying they''re a bad thing, and I''m not saying college is bad, or every company hires like the one I went to. But college isn''t the be-all-end-all people say it is...

And BASSOFeeSH, about the boss conversation thing... if you really have the merit to be promoted, you would ask him who Pavoratti was, instead of pretending you knew




------------------------------
Jonathan Little
invader@hushmail.com
http://www.crosswinds.net/~uselessknowledge

I'm not quite sure why it put me as anonymous up there yet didn't fail to put in my signature, but it was me.

I was gonna edit it to say
"Bomberman, if you say your art will be in future games, then maybe my code will be in the same ones"



Edited by - Qoy on 4/30/00 2:13:39 AM

Actually, education is never bad. If you can get good all-round education I bet you''ll have better knowledge and you can get better and better jobs. Also colleges offer very good programming courses, well I''m not sure about USA, but in here you can extremely well basis from almost any language. Also these college/univer. courses are pretty much undervalued when arrogant guys, mainly, who think they are programming gods ready for action, and school has bad comps, old way to teach and old languages... Let''s say, if you are Diploma Engineer, one behind professor in computer science and you have studied C++/Java/Whatever you''ll be hellafast programmer after 6 years of studying AND you won''t ever forget that part of your life, It is hard work, college parties, cool people who are much like you and endless fun!!

So if you don''t get bored when listening lectures about all kinds of stuff go for it!

Time comes, time goes and I only am.

I wasn''t saying college was bad. And I know it will be a good experience. I''m still gonna go, just because I don''t want to close myself off from any experiences. But I''m just saying I don''t value it as much as some.

heh

i was talking to a friend taking CS course here in Portugal, his final C project to end the C classes is a double linked list with sorting. Yeah, they really teach good stuff

come on, to end C you should probalby have a decent knodlegde of C (he doesnt even know how to pass arrays as a function paramter)

and my parents want me to go to college, HELP ME!

dont know how it is in the US, but CS in Portugal SUCKS !

Hey, thanks for the replys everyone. I''m glad there are some more people who share my opinion, guess i''m not too crazy. And I do enjoy learning. A lot of people seem to think you can only learn in college or school. Learning is a life long process. As I said earlier, graduating is not a big deal to me, I will still learn as much as possible, and will continue to do so forever. I want to learn not only what is neccesary, but everything I can. I can also learn everything faster than in college, I''m not limited to certian times and places to learn, and I don''t have to keep with the learning pace of the class.

And I fully agree with you Chrono, companies do not want people who just know a certian program, they want ARTIST, someone who is ceative. And this can never be tought in a classroom (though you can still be a good artist with practice). You can greatly improve and refine your abilities with practice, but someone who is not creative won''t be a great artist. And I do have Game Design: Secrets of the Sages and it is a great book.

Ok, here''s the thing. College is important. For almost every single job out there (that makes any money) a degree is a must. Notice I said, ALMOST. Look at the most successful game programmers (I''m using game PROGRAMMING as the example, although the same should go for game artists as well as level designers) out there, and most of them DON''T have college degrees. Game programming is one of the few fields that you can become very successful without a degree.

I have no degree and I started in a programming company making $25,000 a year because I have no degree/experience (ie, PROOF that I''m good). After 1 year there I''m now making $40,000. Why? Because I''m GOOD at what I do. THAT''s what most (although not all) game companies look for. If you have proof (ie, awesome Q3 levels you created, a popular mod for UT, some spetacular new Q3 character models) then you will get hired making the money you deserve for your talent. I''ve seen it quite a bit. And if a company looks at your PROVEN example of how good you are, and someone who has no proof but has a 4 year degree, and they hire the college graduate, then that is NOT a place you''d want to work at. Most gaming companies are different and actually hire/promote based on skill, and not a piece of paper.

Of course, there is a catch here. You HAVE to be self motivated. You MUST prove that you are better then Mr. Smith with a 4 year degree. Don''t expect the get hired over college graduates without some hard proof that you know wtf you are doing. It takes a lot of hard work and determination (I myself have 30+ programming books I''ve bought and read). Luckily with games now a days (especially FPS) it is real easy to show off your talent (ie, mods, levels, characters).

Now, before people start flaming me (heh) I''m going to recommend getting a degree. That is the safest bet. But if you are good and you have the motivation, you can get just as far without a college degree.

Here''s a link to a small blurb (one of MANY from well known programmers on the subject) from Brian Hook: http://www.voodooextreme.com/ask/askarch/dec21-25.html#dec23a

One thing no one has mentioned is the cost of college. If you go to college, it is gonna require 5 yrs of your life and put you $10,000-$20,000 in debt.

On the other hand, if you went to work in a your career feild right away, you would have spent those 5 years making alot of money, and gaining valuable work experience.

After 5 years, who would be in a better position:
The college student with no job and substantially in debt, or the other guy who has a job, been working for 5 years, has not depts and is already in higher up positions then entry level.

Possibility

Possibility: How do you garauntee the person with no degree gets a job? Unless hell froze over, there would be college graduates applying for the same job right when that person with no degree is applying. Thus, this really shoots the shit out of your theory.

'I'm sorry Dave. I'm Afraid I can't let you do that...'

*throws .02 into the crowd*

Go to college. Stay focused on what you''re doing. Keep making reels while in college(contrary to popular belief you will have free time...lots )If after two years you think your stuff is up to snuff, then apply for some kind of internship. Trust me, future employers will appreciate this.

The games industry has had tons of people who never went to college and became successful, then again its had alot of the opposite. There will always be people with ''talent'' who get in the biz, but imagine how many don''t. The game industry is going to become much more commercialized in the coming years. Publishers are going to be putting alot of pressure on their respective devs to hire ''proven'' people. People who have degrees!! It may not seem important or relevant now, but it will be soon .

Thanks for your time.