quote:

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DAOC? CRAP. TOTAL CRAP. I played it a while - at lvl 12 I was unable to be usefull in a group of lvl 15 characters. TOTALLY USELESS.

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I don''t know, when I was 11th level I was regularly grouping with level 15 players and was invaluable to them. Maybe it was your play style.

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The casual player can not compete with his more hardcore friends at all, not even support them

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That''s kind of the point. If I play 14 hours a day, I don''t WANT someone that plays 2 or 3 hours a day to be able to compete with me at all. I have between 5 and 7 times his investment, why should he be able to compete with me? Let''s see... I spend 150 hours in-game and someone with 45 hours should be able to compete with me? Of course, that means that someone with only 15 hours should be able to compete with the person with 45 hours... how far is the person with 15 hours from the person with 150 at that point? Not very. What about the player with 1500 hours? How much more powerful should he be when compared to the player with only 250 hours? That''s like saying that someone with a couple of years in an army should be at around the same level of experience as someone who has 10 years in. Your expectations are unreasonable.

If your friends want to play with you, they should create a character that they play when you''re online. You shouldn''t use the fact that you don''t have any time to play to justify making a game where progress is nearly non-existent.

BTW, just so you know, I''m not a powergamer. I have a family that I love to spend time with and a full-time job. That basically means that completing Diablo2 took me over a month. Hitting level 42 in Everquest took me well over a year and a half. I probably could never finish Morrowind, no matter how hard I try. I also understand that someone who has that time investment deserves to have a better character. You may not like it, but it''s reality, just like your job. You work longer, you usually get paid more. If you''re a better player you''ll be able to get those levels faster, but that''s really an exception, not the rule.

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Original post by Khelz
www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).

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I wouldn''t call 40-60 players MMO... Someone may be able to code a MMORPG and even run it (to some extent), but most amateurs won''t get very far. I have no problem with kids that know some netcode and some 3D code building an online RPG, but a lot of the amateurs supposedly "developing" and MMORPG just can''t do it. They don''t have the skills or the drive or the time or whatever. Just look at most amateur MMORPG pages. They''ll have some bad 3D renders that they''re passing off as "screenshots" a few paragraphs on "evil empires", and some more stuff on how their game will "revolutionize the industry" and is "better than Everquest." An amateur can make an MMORPG (or at least an online RPG) if they design it within their limits, but most of the projects out there (80-90%) that amateurs propose are barely within the limits of the best professional studios.

quote:

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Original post by Khelz
I''m just gonna give two examples of successfull amateur MMORPGS (Graphical Mud-style).

www.realmsofkaos.com
-> 200 to 300 players online at the same time, growing community, server running on a T1.

www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).

Well those games are both free. Okay that''s not a full 3D
everquest but that''s an EVIDENCE that amateurs will not be able to do better in terms of techniques and performances than professional companies. I''ve never seen a newbie claming to do better than professional companies (or they''have to be really stupid). BUT there''s more place for creativity in amateurs projects, that''s why I believe in them, and that''s why I don''t laugh at someone who wants to get into MMORPG programmation.


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GameDev''er 4 ever.

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Add dransik to that list.. i play the hell out of dransik, i love it.

www.dransik.com

it''s circa ultima IV graphics, but it''s fun nonetheless.

quote:

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Add dransik to that list.. i play the hell out of dransik, i love it.

www.dransik.com

it's circa ultima IV graphics, but it's fun nonetheless.

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Is Dransik really "amateur"? I heard it's going to cost money to play now...



My Stuff : [ Whispers in Akarra (online rpg) || L33T WAR (multiplayer game) || The Asteroid Menace (another game) ]



[edited by - Khaile on June 25, 2002 11:04:33 AM]

Just as a side note in regards to TCP vs. UDP.

Well, solinear - so you think that TCP is not suited for a MMORPG and UDP should be used? I have a hint for you - you kill a lot of your customer base.

UDP is not connection based. This means that no NAT system is going to support your custom UDP protocol. Support is bad for DirectPlay (which is UDP based, but it is from MS and "official") and will be non-existent for your custom protocol.

Means all the users behind NAT can not use it.

Now, we dont talk of all the geeeks with their own routers here - we talk of the customers of a lot of DSL providers, cable modem companies etc. that ARE using NAT.

Sad, but true.

So, DirectPlay - well, an argument ("Sorry, Mr. Provider but you do not support what?"). TCP - an issue. But UDP - avoid it as long as possible.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

quote:

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Original post by thona
...
So, DirectPlay - well, an argument ("Sorry, Mr. Provider but you do not support what?"). TCP - an issue. But UDP - avoid it as long as possible.
...

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I was understanding that TCP is useless for (most) multiplayer games. I''ve seen many articles on gamasutra that say if you use TCP for a multiplayer game then you are dead in the water. My favourite quote: "TCP is evil. Don''t use TCP for a game. You would rather spend the rest of your life watching Titanic over and over in a theater full of 13 year old girls."

TCP is far to slow and it''s reliable service is more of a penality then a benefit for most data. Consider player positions. Having a reliable service for every move update is not realistic. If TCP has to resend the packet it is pointless since the player has already moved in that time. It is better if the packet was just dropped.


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Andrew

Well, then how do you get inbouind UDP packets through a NAT router?

I am currently in germany. The only cable modem provider here puts you behind NAT.
I knwo a lot of ADSL companies in the US put you behind NAT.

Just answer - how do you handle this with UDP?

I agree on the "better suitability" of UDP in THEORY, but practically you are blocking more and more potential customers.

Well, maybe it is just me thinking that a game should be played by as many people as possible, as I have financian intentions.

As such, I dont care that UDP is better, because UDP is not usable. Period.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

UDP does work with NAT, but a certain style of programming has to be followed for it to work correctly. HalfLife/TFC uses UDP, and I play that through a proxy/NAT system.

On the point of 'Leveling Treadmill' games, yes they are evil, they aren't good for business in the long run either.

Casual gamers just starting the game will quickly realise that they can *never* compete with established players who play 8+ hours per day, causing them to become disillusioned with the game and leave it.

[edited by - Ixpah on June 25, 2002 1:49:47 PM]

Exactly my saying. I dont want vcasual gamers to be as powerfull, to be as rich etc. as the hardcore gamer, but I want groups of friends with mixed attitudes to be able to work together.

When you are lvl 12 in DAOC and your friend is lvl 20, there is NO sense in you two making something together, as he either gets no XP (and no drops), or you dont hit at all (emphasis: at all).

If he would be a little stronger, but you would still be a good backup, you could still spend some time together and have fun. Maybe he would buy you some better equipment with his money, to help you out.

But you would still be useful.

IMHO the levels (ok, their strength) could be related with other things - let character stats max out, and then work with good, reputation etc., and create a system where you can lend such. a high lvl character gets the permission to carry a good gun and can lend this or extend this to his current group. After the adventure the less known character has to give the gun back, as alone he lacks the necessary permission.

Casual gamers are a huge market.

I myself played DAOC 2 months ago :-) Now, after a lot of work, I think of going back in. But what for? Finding new friends etc.? Hm, no, in a month I have a hot phase again and cant play for some weeks. So what do I do? Orecisely: I quit the game.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(MIcrosoft mVP C#/.NET)

quote:

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Original post by thona
Well, then how do you get inbouind UDP packets through a NAT router?

I am currently in germany. The only cable modem provider here puts you behind NAT.
I knwo a lot of ADSL companies in the US put you behind NAT.

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Hmm. I''m not sure of the situation in Germany but I don''t think that this is a common pratice in North America. If an ISP gave you a NAT''d IP then it would cause hell for a lot of other applications as well. All the searches I did on www.google.com said that if your ISP gives you a NAT''d IP then look for another ISP .

But again, I''m not sure if European ISPs operate differently.

UDP can work though a NAT''d network. I''m NAT''d on my machine but I just port forward to this machine.

quote:

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I agree on the "better suitability" of UDP in THEORY, but practically you are blocking more and more potential customers.

Well, maybe it is just me thinking that a game should be played by as many people as possible, as I have financian intentions.

As such, I dont care that UDP is better, because UDP is not usable. Period.

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This does not sound like a good plan to me. You should be trying to make the best possible game. If you have to sacrifice performance ( and in this case maybe greatly ) then you may end up with nobody at all playing the game and therefore nobody willing to pay for it.


Of course all of this is IMHO..


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Andrew