"Realistically speaking you need a team of 10 or more developers for about four years, full time. And those 10 people had better know what they''re doing to begin with. All those four years you will have to pay their salaries, hardware, office space, whatnot. That requires couple things: a company, and funding."

That''s the biggest load of crap I''ve ever read on a single page. I don''t know where you got that llyod but if you wrote it, you should erase it because it''s crap. Realistically speaking you have no idea what it takes to create an MMORPG.

Anybody with two networked computers can create an MMORPG. You could even do it on one computer if you''re in to that sort of self inflicted suffering. As I said in my previous post it took 10 days with just me to create Gang Wars which supports up to 1024 (arbitrary. It could be more if I wanted to up it.) players. It cost me $0 to make.

Obviously these newbies are not going for Everquest. If you''d like to change your title to "So You Want to Clone Everquest" maybe...just maybe...you might have a case. As it stands that page is a just a collection of some of the biggest myths going. MMOPRGs aren''t as complicated as you''d like to make them out to be.

Ben


IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting ]

While I don''t think that 10 days is practical for an MMOG, I do agree for the mostpart with KalvinB.

It''s two completely different projects and the client is little more than a pretty dumb terminal to display graphics. The server is where everything happens and it''s easier than a regular RPG because you don''t have to worry about the load that the graphics will pull. So long as you have a good, distributed setup for the servers, you''re good to go and your main problem will become creating the content. Hard? Yes. Impossible for a team of experienced graphic content designers, a couple of decent AI programmers and a good mapping tool for the mappers to use? Hardly.

Is my team a group of experienced game programmers? Not all of them. We have a couple of experienced game programmers and they work on the client with graphics. Graphics? All professional modelers and artists. Music? OK, he''s experienced with games industry too. Server programmers? Only the AI guys really need to have game programming experience, all of the others are professional server/client programmers and database programmers.

You think that a game programmer could build a database as well as a programmer that builds databases day in and day out for accounting and ERP vendors? There is a world of difference between an MMOG and a regular computer game. MMOGs are really better off going after half a team of experienced game programmers and the other half they should pull from other industries because it''s a whole other world in the MMO arena. Half of it is content and display, the other half is nothing like any game.

I am planning to write an article about my work on a "online rpg" called Whispers in Akarra (http://akarra.planetqs.com) when I feel that I've achieved at least the basic features of what I wanted from the beginning. This goal has yet to be reached, but I thought I should spend a few words here.

Don't do an online rpg. Simple.

I am a programmer with many years of programming experience, and two years in the game development industry. Look at the game I've made... it has very simple graphics and some monsters, but no items/guilds/skills/classes/"huge landscapes"/"thousand items"/"crime systems" or whatever else you might come up with. I've been working on this game since september last year... that's (nearly) every evening, weekend, holiday and extra hours I could get during TEN MONTHS . And you're talking about your cool spell system? Allow me to laugh together with Kylotan: LOL

Every morning me and my colleagues check through the gamedev forums for any new "great game ideas" that more often than not sounds like "game X, but with more stuff", and laugh at them. This is not because we're evil, but because we've been there too. Know your limitations. Don't do an MMORPG if you haven't done...

- A game (any game).
- A single-player rpg with working GUI (not to be underestimated).
- A single-player game with similar gfx as you want in your MMORPG (ie, a FPS for most of you).
- A multi-player game (not turn-based).

As a final note... I searched through my Akarra project folders for *.cpp and *.h and found 370 files. Food for thought.

(end of rant... you wanna play with me? I gladly create accounts for you Hopefully items will be added in the next version.)

EDIT: Fixed some typos...


[edited by - Khaile on June 20, 2002 5:52:59 PM]

I''ve had my ideas for this military RTS game I''m working on for about 2 years now. I''m only just now sitting down and experimenting with reticles and adding to an engine I''ve had sitting there for a while. I''m beginning to realize it probably is just a hobby and something I do not want to do full time.

I wish I could figure out what I really wanted to do full time, though! I''d really like to land somewhere where I can say to myself, "Yes, THIS is what I''ve been working towards." But I guess not all of us can be that lucky every year of our lives.

If you''re convinced you were born to make games, trust me. Go outside every once in a while, climb a tree. You''ll find your appreciation for games and your burning desire to make them is NOT an ends in itself. Our appreciation for many other things in our lives helps fuel what we enjoy about games and programming them. If you put all your energy into games and focus on nothing else, it could all fall flat someday and you''ll be left with a very serious rut to get out of.

*scratches head*

I don't understand why people are going on and on about how hard it is to develop an mmorpg. I was able to create a simple (and I mean SIMPLE) tile-based engine in about 3 hours. Granted, it was with Python, not C++, so development time was far less, but still, it was something, and it DID something. All with a programming language that I had just decided to learn earlier that evening.

Now, like I said, C++ is far more difficult, and I have no intentions of touching it until I can take some classes (books just don't cut it for me with C++. Go figure).

I don't think the issue is actually creating the MMORPG is the problem. In fact, I think it's an excellent way to learn a LOT about game development, as long as you are willing to accept failure many times, and having to rewrite the code. But that's how you learn, from your mistakes. My little tile-based engine impressed the hell out of me, but it was written without proper planning, and no object orientation taken into account. For me, the engine taught me some of the finer points about Python and Pygame. In turn, Python has taught me a little about OO programming. C++ was extremely frustrating because without a good teacher, OO design went completely over my head. I couldn't get classes to work, I had no idea what to put into which functions, and worrying about scope was a nightmare. Hell, the post before this is me asking for help on data structure! Slowly, I'm learning.

You know what, laughing at someone is a little excessive. Telling them that chances are they'll give up on the project before they finish it might be a little more effective. I mean, EVERYBODY is a newbie at one point or another. Who says that newbie you laughed at might be the next Richard Garriot.

Newbies: This is all coming from a fellow newbie. Want some inspiration? Take a look at the articles. Or visit Sourceforge.net. It's an excellent place for the aspiring programmer. There, you can see how other people do it (by looking at their source) and the like. And just because someone laughs at your ideas, doesn't mean it's not possible. But realize, taking on an MMORPG project is a laughable cause if you have no experience. I myself, I like getting in completely over myhead

EDIT: Almost forgot. Don't take the advice and criticism of your veterans for granted. Though it may not come to you in a form you like, you'd be surprised how much they can help by merely saying you screwed up somewhere

[edited by - artemisx on June 20, 2002 6:13:53 PM]

quote: Original post by Waverider
I''ve had my ideas for this military RTS game I''m working on for about 2 years now. I''m only just now sitting down and experimenting with reticles and adding to an engine I''ve had sitting there for a while. I''m beginning to realize it probably is just a hobby and something I do not want to do full time.

I wish I could figure out what I really wanted to do full time, though! I''d really like to land somewhere where I can say to myself, "Yes, THIS is what I''ve been working towards." But I guess not all of us can be that lucky every year of our lives.

If you''re convinced you were born to make games, trust me. Go outside every once in a while, climb a tree. You''ll find your appreciation for games and your burning desire to make them is NOT an ends in itself. Our appreciation for many other things in our lives helps fuel what we enjoy about games and programming them. If you put all your energy into games and focus on nothing else, it could all fall flat someday and you''ll be left with a very serious rut to get out of.

Feels very off-topic but I must admit that is true about me. I''ve always loved games and have never done anything else (hasn''t been computer games only, though... lots of pen-and-paper rpg and tabletops), and now I''m stuck. I''m working at a game company and my spare-time hobby is game programming. Dunno about the rut... don''t doubt you, though. Are you talking out of personal experience?

quote: Original post by ArtemisX
I don''t understand why people are going on and on about how hard it is to develop an mmorpg. I was able to create a simple (and I mean SIMPLE) tile-based engine in about 3 hours. Granted, it was with Python, not C++, so development time was far less, but still, it was something, and it DID something. All with a programming language that I had just decided to learn earlier that evening.

Hmm... that''s the problem, in my opinion. Inexperienced programmers (no offence) believe the graphics engine is the hard part and go on making "terrain engines" or whatever. It''s not. Trust me.

Khalie: Oh trust me. I''ve realized the graphics engine is the easy part

It''s just merely an example. I''ve NEVER been able to get a decent result in my previous endeavours, but the tile engine, well, it was something tangible. Until that point, I didn''t think I''d ever get anything to run.

As it stands, things like AI, combat engines, magic systems, etc. are all out of my league. But with a little dedication and a lot of caffeine, I know something will show up.

Plus, I doubt many of the people here plan on going professional with the MMORPG they''ve designed. I personally just want to say I''ve done it. Bragging rights Plus it''s a hobby, and it''s entertaining as hell to me. Not to mention no one else has really created a full-fledged MMORPG in Python, so I thought I''d give it a whack

By the way, what does MMO stand for?

M)assive M)ultiplayer O)nline

Diablo would be only a MORPG if you call it a RPG at all.
Everquest, UO and the like would be MMORPG.

As I still think most are MMOH&SG
(Massive Multiuser Online Hack&Slash Games)