Yeah I see your point, again though I dont see it as an impossible feat to remove the current method of being a hero from becoming just the norm. I mean whats needed is to allow the player alternate methods of becoming the hero... I look at it like this...."Okay so I got a fully functional 3D gameworld, free to do whatever I want, like kill stuff... ummm and trade... umm umm, what else??" I mean come on, a world with almost coplete freedom to do as you desire and yet the only things game designers have yet come up with are fighting, trading and in game marriages... cant we be more creative than this... surely it''s not that hard!!

Why do we make such a big deal out of wanting a world where you can fulfil any role you choose, to only be given the tools to do one or two things. Everything else is added as afterthought. Drawing on another thread about a crime invesitgator scenario.... this is another method of allowing the player to be a hero in a different light... it doesnt all have to be mundane.

I think perhaps what is needed is a much stronger social structure, perhaps allowing players to enlist in pre-created law enforcement agencies, armies and other such organisations. If we have to resort to only being able to kill stuff and trade to get anything from a game, at least we could provide different ways to become a hero using that medium. I mean are the only heroes in a fantasy world the ones who go out in parties braving dungeons, are they really the only people in that fantasy world experiencing an existance that could be equated to enjoyable?
No way, there are generals, law enforcement officers, kings, explorers, gladiators and so on that may also be deemed heroic and IMO wouldnt be boring to play. I know I''m using the same reccurring examples, and the theme is still killing, but I''m sure thats only a mental block cos its what were used to, given adequate thought I''m sure alternative methods could enable a player to become a hero in another way without it feeling like work.

I don''t like the way that running a shop in a game is deemed dull because it''s similar to work..... it''s not the best of examples but it can be rewarding... setting up a shop in game might be simple and easy with the right system and generate the player a very nice sum of money.... helpful in other things. Work in real life is dull because you arent free to do your own thing.. you''re effectively a paid slave. Setting up a business or the like in a game can be fun, if it wasnt fun to do things in a game that are seen as dull in real life... why were games like sim city so popular? I for one would get bored outta my skull if I were in a real life role such as that, but I could quite happily sit in game and play the role for a while cos it''s not in the real world... I''m not working for anyone else and deadlines arent a lose your job situation (ie your real life doesnt suffer any consequence) and its fun to see how you''d perform without real world constraints such as bearing the consequeuence of your actions (again, you suffer from in game consequence but not R.L.). I say its not the best of examples cos runnin a shop... well I''m sure other roles could be added in that were more fun.... but my point overall is that setting up a business in a game neednt feel like something someone should be paying you to do!!

While I''m not a trader at all, I know some people who delight in sitting in East Commons tunnel in EQ bartering away to try and make that illusive deal that will net the a few thousand plat to get that uber item they''re after. There''s a goal, a method to get that money without having to necessarily earn it, all you have to do is be a skilled trader and some people love to sit there and barter away until they feel they have the perfect deal, and they become the "hero" when they can boast in guild chat about the awesome deal they struck.

Just a few more thoughts to throw into the works, I do see your point as valid despite extensive reasoning against it, but what I don''t agree with is the way anything that is not killing must therefore = dull.

The problem is that there are very few interesting activities in the world that translate well to computer games.



Thanks,
Etnu

Sometimes I think I know what I really don''t, but then again usually I do know what I don''t, but just don''t realize it, maybe its because I am so young, but then again it could be because I am insane.

I have it..... I''ve figured out whats needed. Mini-games, the reason people dont find existing implementations of alternative things to do.... is cos they''re not based on existing game genres. Look at it from this perspective.... if you included ways of playing your game that people already found fun in other games... its a guaranteed success. One idea to show my point the others I''m keeping to myself for personal use =)

Setting future RPG... what can you do in it??

Fight, trade.

Not much variety huh. So we draw from an existing game format.... racing games. People enjoy playing them so using a tad of that format in the game so long as its implemented well and seamlessly pretty much should be fun. Why not allow in a futuristic RPG the ability to control a vehicle and run it round a map that has an area designed as a racecourse? Heck you could even include that in fantasy RPG''s having chariot races or horse races taking bets on the winners. Theres something completely new and if done well, undeniably fun and DIFFERENT!!! So I think I have my answer.... look at existing games to find other roles that people find fun... implement them in a toned down format into your game (after all we dont wanna end up coding the equivalent of 3 or 4 games into one game so they have to be simplified) It''d be like being able to play a game of wipeout and once you''re finished, jump out of the ship, go collect your winnings and use it to buy some kick ass weaponary for use on foot.... how cool would that be?

Anyone care to comment on the idea?

Well, I don''t think it''s drawing off previous genres that is the important point, it''s simply offering variety in the gameplay.

By adding chariot races, you get attention by allowing people to race and to gamble.
What about sailing? (only 1 MMORPG planning this as far as I know [Dragon Empires]) Now people can join together and man a galleon! Maybe set up trade routes and carry armies over seas. You could play the pirate and spend your time raiding other ships.
Let''s say you allow people to get some sort of "familiar" in the game (monster to tag along with them). Going further than the typical game with that you could make it so people actually raise these and then sell them off.

So we get: Fight, Trade, Race, Gamble, Sail, Raise.
Much more attractive list =)

The problem with MMORPG''s now is that the developers can''t seem to get past "more races, more classes, more spells, and more items!!!!". I don''t care whether I can look like an Orc, if the only variety I''ll get is +5 to strength and -5 to agility. I want something else to do, something fresh. So I don''t get bored of fighting and find myself with a useless game (hence the reason I only play beta MMORPG''s, not paying for something I''ll be bored of by the end of the first month).

The problem with adding so many things is the time and effort it takes to do so. But the ambitious company who can grit their teeth and work through that will be the one on top.

A really flexible interface/engine could solve this I think. Just think if you wanted to be a shopkeeper or something, the game engine switched over to a tycoon kind of feeling, and you got to build and run a shop for real people.


My problem with these online rps doesnt lie in that everyone is a hero. Thats fine, just most people dont act like heros. IF the game is set in a certain time period, the players should be in that mood. Im always annoyed by the 11 year old looser who walks around talking in reallllly bad english. IT ruins the feel. You also cant just hand people a world. I think id be better to instill some form of hometown pride in players, or throw them into the middle of a war when they start etc.

-chris

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Original post by Kilj

My problem with these online rps doesnt lie in that everyone is a hero. Thats fine, just most people dont act like heros. IF the game is set in a certain time period, the players should be in that mood. Im always annoyed by the 11 year old looser who walks around talking in reallllly bad english. IT ruins the feel. You also cant just hand people a world. I think id be better to instill some form of hometown pride in players, or throw them into the middle of a war when they start etc.

-chris

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Although I agree with you on this that is one feature of online gaming that the coder can not control. You can''t, in code, stop someone from talking a certain way "out of character" as long as talking is a part of the game system. The only thing I can see as a way to curve the "11 year old looser" as you put it from being, well an 11 year old looser would be real time/in game sysops. Then the game would be monitored and whatever the sysops allow is how the world turns out.


GRELLIN

CGP | IYAOYAS | Linux.com

Don''t fear the penguin!

On deform terrain: almost all the top-line MMORPG like SG and atriarch all have it. It''s certainly not impossible.

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I pictured in my mind the scene of an all powerful King being assasinated in his sleep. It happens. Obviously maintaining every single character held by the server constantly in the game would be daft, so perhaps they remain considered in-game for 5-10 minutes or so, allowing enemy assasins the chance to creep and lie in wait for someone to sleep, then assasinate them. Then comes the problem of everyone and their mother running about assasinating anyone without care to who or why, purely to cause disruption. So how could this be dealt with? Allow the player in their own abode (assuming they own one) to hire personal guards to deter would-be attackers. Secondly what if the player doesnt wanna trek home just to sleep? Allow them to sleep anywhere they choose including inns, the floor, friends abodes etc, but when they sleep in a dangerous location, allow them to set traps, these traps would make it hard for them to be attacked, this would ause the player to wake and effectively be removed from the game (representing the player having made good his escape) Thus even players who cant afford to hire a bodyguard, can easily afford personal protection. Okay it''s not perfect but would allow some degree of representing even the best of players being vulnerable at times. Needs work I know, but just another aspect to consider.

All of this dosen''t change the fact that sleep is boring. The problem is fundamental. So you spend 5 minutes setting the traps and all that then goes to sleep lying there for 5-10 doing absolutely nothing but the assassin dosen''t didn''t come. There is nothing fun in that.

Do you really think that just because a person currently has the ability to speak to or hear anyone almost anywhere that this makes a game fun?

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Actually I do. Why do you think people likes to sit on a couch at home and watch TV or talk on cell phones instead of going outside and take the time to interact with other people?

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I think my methods would reduce the numbers of those wishing to play purely to promote bad feeling via chat methods. This in turn would create a community more people want to be a part of because it suffers less with these problematic players.

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The most basic form of RP is through the chat method where two people pretend to be different persons. You are not reducing anything but instead of making it worse.

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Give the players a motivation to declare a war and go to war they shall. Having added the motivation, impact of wars is felt, that pesky king askin stupid amounts of tax from you? Stage an uprising bring him down and pull in someone new, Bam, the impact is huge, the ruling party either beats of the coup, or falls. If he wins he beats his subjects into submission and becomes feared or even respected, if he fails, the laws of the land change. Perhaps law could be implemented also, and I''m talking more than just player killers control, I''m talking laws on drug traffiking, illegal use of forbidden knowledge, daft laws (they always come about somehow!!), stealing and so on.

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Having something like this actually occur in the game won''t be easy. But you don''t need to give them motivation given enough players. Conflicts eventually will happen; it''s human nature and only a matter of times. I''m more concern with the social impact on the gamers community. You have to tweak this just right for it to work. If giving the "king" player too much powers like charging taxes, hire body guard, control merchant. He could potentially become invincible to uprising and you''ll soon find a lot of players whining. On the other hand, if you make the powers practically worthless, there won''t be anybody that wants to be the king. Anyway, this isn''t a simple thing to implement into the game. (Wonder how well Shadowbane will do this.)

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I have said it a hundred times, and I will say it again. MMORPGs that are based on ancient fantasy cultures should have slaves. In ancient civilizations, who did all the really crappy work? Slaves. They need to allow you to purchase slaves and be able to teach them trades. Players don''t want to do NPC jobs, but I bet they would like to control what some NPCs did.

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Slaves/NPC, they both perform the same function so they''re basically the same thing. Don''t see the need to include slaves into the game and some people might actually take offense to the phrase.

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Another thing MMORPG developers should try doing is domestication. How cool would it be for people to have in game pets? Maybe you could domesticate/buy a dog that can track animals for you. You can use a creature specific item like an ear, fur, clothing, and give it to the dog through some kind of trade window. Then, if a creature of that type is in a certain radius from where you are, the dog can run to it.

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Yea, this is cool. I had this idea for training domesticated dogs to sniff the ground and track people/items in the game based on category of smell. And you''ll often find mages summon a familiar like an imp or hellhound, place them on a lash, and use them to search for spell components. Well, I hope it''ll get implemented in the game.

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I have it….. I''ve figured out whats needed. Mini-games, the reason people dont find existing implementations of alternative things to do…. is cos they''re not based on existing game genres. Look at it from this perspective…. if you included ways of playing your game that people already found fun in other games… its a guaranteed success. One idea to show my point the others I''m keeping to myself for personal use =)

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Not exactly. Mini-games means more codes and more artworks. And then some people won''t even bother to play with them. What you should be after is to include a flexible engine and create the interactive tools for the players to create the mini-games themselves and then reward them some ways. Works kindda like this: Give them a ball with some logs and they''ll recreate bowling or baseball. Give them dice and they will play crabs or yatchzi(sp).

Has anyone ever watched "Who''s Lines is it Anyway?" There''s a sub-game on it called "Props" where the actors, more like professional comedian, gets up on the stage were given a single object and then they re-create a great multitude of different instances all based on the single object. It''s completely spontanous, requires little resource, allows the players to roleplay anyway they want, and it''s completely fun. That is what I think MMORPG should be about.

Hi!
i am playing this MMORPG which is ultra cool. Instead of just ur combat skill, players can learn ''life skills'' such as weaponsmith, toolssmith, miner, chef, etc. these take time to train as well, plus you get to make good weapons which can trade. tt might be one way to get ard tt problem, giving intrinsic incentives to other ''goals''.

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Another thing MMORPG developers should try doing is domestication. How cool would it be for people to have in game pets? Maybe you could domesticate/buy a dog that can track animals for you. You can use a creature specific item like an ear, fur, clothing, and give it to the dog through some kind of trade window. Then, if a creature of that type is in a certain radius from where you are, the dog can run to it.

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Yea, this is cool. I had this idea for training domesticated dogs to sniff the ground and track people/items in the game based on category of smell. And you'll often find mages summon a familiar like an imp or hellhound, place them on a lash, and use them to search for spell components. Well, I hope it'll get implemented in the game.

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If you couple that with my idea, you could have breeders in your game. Wouldn't that be interesting? To raise a bunch of familiars and sell them off to people? You could raise them to be killers, scavengers, cute fuzzy things, etc. And then throw in a method to keep track of where they are, for some personal satisfaction (The guy who won the tournament used a familiar *I* raised, nyaaah nyaaah nyaaah!). It could be another way of achieving fame, gaining a reputation as the #1 breeder in the area. You'd be in high demand =)

(sort of wandering off here, see last post)
If you've got variety, the next thing you have to look at is "Why would I play this?". What (to quote pPp) "incentives" does the player have to be a trader, what can they achieve?
Ragnarok Online (RO) has a very successful merchant class. Essentially instead of learning combat skills you get discounts from shops and can sell items for more. Around this has evolved a system where a merchant walks into a shop, sits down, puts up a little sign which says "20% discounts!" and has half the room run to him (note: they can buy for 24% off, then sell for 20%, merchant gets a bonus and warrior gets cheap item).
The other thing a merchant can do is set up a little shop. It's very fast, easy, and can be taken down/back as much as you want. With the ability to transfer items between characters (3 per account), you find a lot of people get a merchant to make money for their fighters.

So for the example of the chariot races, possible incentives could be:
1) Big cash prizes!
2) General fame (since people could gamble on the races, lots would be watching, they'd all see how you kicked arse =)
3) More "directed" fame. Maybe have the player's character painted up on a wall somewhere. Imagine the bragging rights you'd get from that!

[edited by - LockePick on May 18, 2002 2:38:38 PM]

"So you spend 5 minutes setting the traps and all that then goes to sleep lying there for 5-10 doing absolutely nothing but the assassin dosen''t didn''t come. There is nothing fun in that."

Misinterpretation, the player doesnt remain literally in game... only their avatar... the player is logged off and this process occurrs automatically.

"Actually I do. Why do you think people likes to sit on a couch at home and watch TV or talk on cell phones instead of going outside and take the time to interact with other people?"

Sorry but again its a misinterpretation, how can sitting on a cell phone be likened to being able to chat to everyone, everywhere all at once? You are talking about allowing a player to communicate effectively with one chosen and known individual.... my system doesn''t stop that!!!

"The most basic form of RP is through the chat method where two people pretend to be different persons. You are not reducing anything but instead of making it worse."

Since when do any of my ideas stop two people who have gotten to know one another talking?

"Having something like this actually occur in the game won''t be easy. But you don''t need to give them motivation given enough players. Conflicts eventually will happen; it''s human nature and only a matter of times. "

You don''t need to give them motivation to have conflicts no, not at all... but you do need to give them a game motivation to have conflicts relating to the game.. not simply cos two players dont get along cos of a personality clash. Removing motivation renders all reasons for conflict down to personality clashes and pre-created confrontations. I don''t want people to have to purposefully create their own reason for a war, I want it to be dynamic and happen not because you hate XXXX player as a person, but because the game applies motivation to create conflict. ie a player is running an area and taxing people in it too highly... they go up in arms against him because he is too harsh, the player ruling may be aware of this, but he is playing his role as a tyranical ruler, people wont necessarily hate him in real life, but in their role they are motivated to go to conflict. As for Kngs being too powerful or weak... thats a matter of game balance, which is an entirely separate issue.

As regards slaves, why would anyone take offence? It''s a game for crissakes.... did people go up in arms about Fallout because it featured slaves and tribes being enslaved? I don''t recall anything happening along those lines!!

"Not exactly. Mini-games means more codes and more artworks. And then some people won''t even bother to play with them. What you should be after is to include a flexible engine and create the interactive tools for the players to create the mini-games themselves and then reward them some ways. Works kindda like this: Give them a ball with some logs and they''ll recreate bowling or baseball. Give them dice and they will play crabs or yatchzi(sp)."

Your idea of giving the player the tools to create these mini games is exactly what I already intended, I think I did in fact state something along the lines that these will not be full games but utilise the existing engine.. or something roughly to that effect. Don''t think I''d be daft enough to make an entirely separate game!

I know my reply has been entirely negative towards your own Mooglez, but the point I''m trying to make is you are not reading what I''m saying as intended, you''re changing it into something else. When you look at the counter points I''ve made, it in fact shows we''re actually thinking along similar lines, just you don''t realise it.

Steve AKA Mephs