Hi,

Recent advancements like http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6049 will definitely put more light into Linux. As one can see that Taiwan etc are major hardware manufactures and maybe if they move towards linux we might see more support for hardware in linux. Also with a lot of companies moving towards linux we might see a lot more support for linux. With more support for hardware and from companies we might just be moving into the era of games actually doing very well in Linux.

quote: Original post by Dauntless

4) Linux users don't want to pay for software

Your point being??? Anything you can do in windows, I can do in linux including GFX, SOUND files, etc. and with free software.

quote:
Something like 90% of the desktop marketplace is M$. M$ is for the masses because Joe-six pack doesn't want to have to figure out how to run Linux....and perhaps more importantly, he wants tech support to be there when his machine runs afoul. I work in tech support and I know how this goes.

Last I check, it was 85% of the Desktop market.

quote:
There is no one to go to to point a finger at or escalate business failures to. And this is a huge issue for the company and I would imagine for Joe Six pack too. When Joe six pack runs into trouble, who does he call? Most distributions only have limited support, and what vendors sell Linux installed PC's? Basically there is no one anywhere to hold anyone's hand...and that really scares people away.

Ever heard of Linux user groups? That's basicly what they do. There are also some companies that offer support for Linux. Do a search on the net, you will find some.

quote:
The other major issue is that Linux gamers probably wouldn't pay for software. I think in some ways they are spoiled by free software to the point that they expect things to be free. While you can make amateur games for free pretty easily, if you want professional caliber games with models and cut scenes created on Maya, and professional quality music and effects, then it's not going to happen on Linux.

I'm a Linux user and net admin and when I want to run a game that's ported to Linux, I do buy it, that's what I did for Quake 3. And so did my friends.

quote:
I don't really know how to counter any of my above points. Perhaps in time 1-3 will be abolished, but something needs to change for 4 and 5. Hopefully with IBM throwing it's support for Linux on the mainframe, maybe it will eventually start supporting Linux on the desktop too. Hey, if IBM could make M$ what it is today by bundling MS-DOS with their PC's, why not for Linux? Without IBM, M$ would be nothing (and probably Intel too for that matter).

Even without IBM, M$ might have been where they are now but with some other company's computers. Who knows, maybe we would all be using Altairs or Crays or Vaxs, etc. There were other computers long before IBM.



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[edited by - cyberdrek on May 5, 2002 10:56:29 PM]

Cyberdrek: Watch the tone. If you had read the posts you would have seen that Issues #1-3 are now off-limits (deemed irrelevant). There''s also no need to attack Dauntless - calling him a "Microsoft addict" and such rot. His points are valid, and he''s asking for information and input, not trying to incite something.

Don''t make me close an excellent discussion thread.

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quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Cyberdrek: Watch the tone. If you had read the posts you would have seen that Issues #1-3 are now off-limits (deemed irrelevant). There''s also no need to attack Dauntless - calling him a "Microsoft addict" and such rot. His points are valid, and he''s asking for information and input, not trying to incite something.

Don''t make me close an excellent discussion thread.

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I read it after. I fixed my post and removed anything offensive. I got carried away. sorry...





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''Sokay.

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Hello Everybody!

Well I''d like to add my opinions from a High-rated Piracy Country (Brazil). Most people don''t have ANY original software, only warez. A Windows XP Full Version license is R$700.00 (US$ 305.00 ). A Low-end system (without OS) costs R$ 1,200.00 (US$ 520.00). A bootlegged version of XP costs R$10.00 (US$ 4.34).

So, Linux COULD be a possibility. Now I''ll put my two cents on your points, ok?

1) I don''t think Linux harder to develop for than Windows. Linux''s real problem WAS a lack of IDE''s. The main word in the last sentence is "WAS". Thanks to Kylix and many others, Linux development is not so different as Windows''. Another issue is the lack of experience in Unix OS environments. If you can''t use the OS well, You won''t develop as much as you''d like;

2) I couldn''t agree more. Windows has an advantage here. But I think that SDL can fix this easily. However SDL alone isn''t enough. Hardware vendors should deliver Linux drivers and documentation. Of course NVidia and Creative are doing a great job, but I believe we (Linux users) need more from the other companies;

3) This is a flame-wars-instant-generator. I won''t get into this one;

4) The best thing I could say is :"Yes.... and no". Yes we don''t need to pay the software. But how about the CONTENT? For instance idSoftware and Epic Games usually release their games'' source code by free. I think Linux is pointing out a new way of how to sell games. Not selling the games itself, but their images, sound, etc. These things could be copyrighted. And the code could be open source as a way of learning and improvement;

5) This is not entirely true. 8% of the PC''s are running Linux as your OS. I don''t think Linux was created to destroy Windows, but in order to be another OS. A choice.

One thing that could change this whole issue (Linux Game Development) is Java. However Java is a Sun Microsystems product and it''s not 100% open as GCC and Linux. But this is topic for another message...

See ya!

quote: Original post by theprogrammer
Hardware vendors should deliver Linux drivers and documentation.

Why?

Business isn''t philanthropy, and if the Linux community doesn''t have critical mass (and doesn''t spend much anyway) there''s no reason for any commercial entity to pay them mind since they''re fiscally marginal at best.

The perils of "free as in beer" in a commerce-driven world.

quote:
For instance idSoftware and Epic Games usually release their games'' source code by free.

Only after they have ceased to be cash cows. The Quake 3 Arena source is still not available because third parties are still licensing it from id. Same with the Unreal source. And the same will hold with the new Doom game''s engine.

I like the intent of the idea that content should be sold, however developing the technology for display of that content is time-consuming and it makes sense to reap multiple reward for the effort by licensing it to other developers (who gain by not having to develop and engine of their own).

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quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Original post by theprogrammer
Hardware vendors should deliver Linux drivers and documentation.

Why?

Good PR and free(as in beer) R&D. If they release Linux drivers, it keeps everybody happy and is seen as a good gesture. If they release the documentation then they could publish the best drivers they get from the community. This makes the programmer who spent his/her time writing drivers good because it strokes their ego and the hw company looks good and didnt have to lift a finger. There was actually a printer company who did this, but I forget who.

Also nVidia has Linux drivers, but I''m certain this is meant for rendering farms, not desktop gamers.

<rant>
Also, I think that Linux will gain market share in the desktop arena because MSFT is getting out of the desktop PC OS business.

Well, not completely, but it is a less relevant market for them. About half of their revenue comes from Office sales, and they could make those on any OS, be it Linux or MacOS.
Also look at their current initiatives.

Tablet PCs - a combination laptop/desktop/scratch pad PC. These already exist, but they arent as mainstream as MSFT could make them. Bill Gates presented one at Comdex saying that these will be the future of computers in 5 (now 4) years. The reason that MSFT is pushing these is because they can control the hardware and software like Apple does with its computers. If they want to change the APIs so that its software runs better than others software, theres nothing to stop them, not even antitrust law. They would have complete control of the platform, and hope to kill off the market for current intel based PCs, controlling all PCs once again. Tablets are doomed thought (the COMDEX kiss of death) and hardware manufacturers arent exactly lining up to make them.

Xbox - Currently combination video game console/DVD player with internet capabilities. The Xbox (or Xbox2) will become an all-in-one video game/DVD/email/web browser/digital video recorder/cable set top box, Ballmer has even said so in interviews. This is another closed hardware platform that MSFT created and can control. It also allows then to spread into media the way WebTV should have, but didnt. No antitrust, all monopoly. Even if Xbox bleeds red ink, MSFT will keep pushing them until this has been realized.

.Net - Not quite sure what this is (not sure anyone is), but it is open and cross platform, something not seen from MSFT before. Having read the findings of fact from the antitrust trial, this raises some (at least my) eyebrows since a great deal of it was about how cross platform APIs could commoditize the OS. Its the reason they tried to kill Netscape and Java, so it doesnt make sense that they would commoditize their own OS, unless they knew that it was going to become a commidity whether they like it or not. Since they cant beat em, they might as well join em.

MSFT knows that they cant fight Linux like everyone else, so they are moving to other markets, and killing the old market. If MSFT makes money off desktop PC OSes, it will just be icing on the cake, but they are going to concentrate on other markets in the years to come.
</rant>


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quote: Original post by Big B
Good PR and free(as in beer) R&D. If they release Linux drivers, it keeps everybody happy and is seen as a good gesture. If they release the documentation then they could publish the best drivers they get from the community. This makes the programmer who spent his/her time writing drivers good because it strokes their ego and the hw company looks good and didnt have to lift a finger.

The only problem with this is that goodwill of null markets traditionally means little to nothing. Since Linux consumers don''t purchase much other than hardware, their goodwill isn''t considered critical to most manufacturers. Hardware manufacturers are, in fact, the only computer-related industry that stands to gain fiscally from paying attention to Linux.

quote:
There was actually a printer company who did this, but I forget who.

Probably HP, since Bruce Perens is both a major Linux advocate and HP''s "Linux Liason".

quote:
Tablets are doomed though (the COMDEX kiss of death) and hardware manufacturers arent exactly lining up to make them.

There isn''t a demand yet, but once they mature and hit the market, they could really boom. Students would want them - one tablet instead of several notebooks, plus you can play games during class and the professor would be none the wiser. Supply-based industries would want them, especially if they came with decent to good wireless network support. Take notes and immediately synchronize with your database; update pricing as inventory changes (you''ve seen those .Net ads, haven''t you?)

I''ve wanted one since I saw a Transmeta-powered mock-up by Compaq or so.

quote:
Its the reason they tried to kill Netscape and Java, so it doesnt make sense that they would commoditize their own OS, unless they knew that it was going to become a commidity whether they like it or not.

Diminishing returns. There hasn''t been a truly compelling reason to upgrade to a newer version of Windows since Windows 95. With that baby, people not only bought new computers with the OS, but often upgraded their old computers to be up to par. No Windows since then has had the same impact, and Microsoft is repurposing itself. For a company that size, MSFT moves with surprising agility.

quote:
MSFT knows that they cant fight Linux like everyone else, so they are moving to other markets, and killing the old market.

"Fight Linux"? What is there to fight? Yes, Linux is free and Free, but how many consumers give a hoot? Linux lacks (usable) applications, and will continue to for a while to come. Fighting Linux has nothing to do with this; Linux users/enthusiasts are just given to dramatizing events to further the notion of an unstoppable "revolution". This is about money.

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quote: Original post by Stonemaster
But if you program with say OpenGL and SDL, you will have portable code that runs on both Windows and Linux. ID Software does a similar thing with their software.

This is the same point I''ve been trying to convince two other budding game programmers of in my classes. Until I started talking to them, they had no idea that such a thing could be done.

My problem is that there does not seem to be any enjoyable book for SDL. I''ve been reading the new PrimaTech GameDev series, and very nearly bought "Linux Game Programming" solely for the SDL section. (Good thing I''m a desitute college student and didn''t waste my money on less than 20 pages).

I honestly think an actual book on SDL would both help it''s popularity and it''s understandability. I''m been using SDL for almost a year and still have no idea how to use index color surfaces, SDL_Mixer, or half of what could be considered the "standard" utilities. Most of these projects have poor documentation, and the tutorials on libsdl.org leave much to be desired.

I also must agree on another point: Linux has poor 3D accelerator support. Even simple OGL scenes drag a 1ghz machine to it''s knees without it.

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