WHOAH!!! WHOAH!!! What have I been missing?!?!?!

You mean, I can INTERACT with PEOPLE?! I can live in a world where there is a complex system of government and places that actually have been given names due to experiences that people have shared in them?!

Hehe, kinda sounds like this place I know called life. You should try livin'' in that one. The NPC''s have incredible AI and can be pretty dynamic and interesting. ;-)

- Jay

Get Tranced!

quote: Oluseyi, I don't think Nomax5's intent is that MMORPGs are actually more important than the discovery of the Americas by our Italian friend, but instead that the impact of these types of immersive, world-participating games is huge in today's time as compared to the impact of Columbus's voyage in his time.

Hm, I took the 'very funny in a sad way' comment to mean something like 'first of all Columbus didn't discover the America's, second of all that discovery completely destroyed an entire continent's society, leaving only small traces of its culture and heritage.'

EDIT: As in, if MMORPGs are allowed to 'discover' the gaming industry, they will obliterate all that was, replacing it with only that which suits them and which they accept as 'good'. I guess I'm trying to imagine what the world would've been like without a fellow like Columbus. Eventually, someone would've 'discovered' the Americas and the wipeout of the ancient civilizations there might've been even worse (if Europe had had even more time to develop their technology, while the native American peoples did not, they would've been wiped out more completely and faster at that). So, do I want MMO to take over the gaming industy now, possibly preventing it from an even bleaker future, or do I want to keep the gaming industry clean for now?

Course, this is all just silly Silvermyst trying to finish up a busy working day, writing his usual nonsense.


[edited by - Silvermyst on April 22, 2002 6:07:40 PM]

quote: Original post by Silvermyst
Hm, I took the ''very funny in a sad way'' comment to mean something like ''first of all Columbus didn''t discover the America''s, second of all that discovery completely destroyed an entire continent''s society, leaving only small traces of its culture and heritage.''

Precisely, and third discovering America wasn''t the fool''s intent. Neither was discovering a path to America; he was looking for a trade route to India and just happened to get lucky. His record doesn''t really reflect any nautical brilliance, to put it mildly.

quote:
EDIT: As in, if MMORPGs are allowed to ''discover'' the gaming industry, they will obliterate all that was, replacing it with only that which suits them and which they accept as ''good''.

There, however, I disagree. I started a thread on MMO as a paradigm and think that MMO-anything, properly executed, could be the salvation and resurgence of the PC as the major gaming platform and could free us from console exclusives and cheap ports. I just happen to think that the current crop of (MMO)RPGs stink and are nothing worth enthusing over. My opinion.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

I'm pretty tired of people ragging on the current crop of MMORPG. Like some bunch of idealistic elitists they go off on "How these games are not worthy enough to bear the name RPG" and how "None of the current crop of designers knows a thing about how to design a real RPG". Perhaps it would be enlightening to consider that most people consider games like Diablo, AC, EQ, and UO to be RPGs. Sure 90% of these people have never experience the wildly amazing and wonderful world of tabletop role playing games.

"I cast fire ball"
"No Lexxor you can't do that yet, you have to recharge for 2 turns"
"No I cast the rejuvenation spell so I can cast fireball this turn"
"Lexxor you never cast the rejuvenation spell, you have to tell the DM that your casting these things or it doesn't count"
"I Whispered it so you wouldn't know i was going to cast fireball this turn"
"Forget it just role the dice..."
"What dice? I wrote on my card that my fireball spell always does 2,500 damage! You’re dead Rothgar! How do you like THAT!!!"


While many of the current crop of games fail to achieve this incredible level of role playing, they do seem to attract many members of the less hard core role playing audiences. These audiences also happen to be the folks who make Hunting and WWF games top sellers and wouldn't you know it? The elitist tabletop RPGers still play these “RPG” games all be it begrudgingly. In fact I think the majority of people who play these games consider any game that has levels, stats and some persistence to be an RPG despite all the moaning and groaning of the elite 10%.

So let’s face it, as long as the game makers can attract the casual gamers as well as the hard core RPGers they aren’t going to make games that suit the annoyingly whiny 10% and isolate the other 90% of their paying customers. It just isn’t going to happen.

And while you’re at it why you don’t pay some respect to the current crop of MMORPGs out there, they are paving the way to a new medium of entertainment that will likely change the face of gaming as we know it.


[edited by - ironside on April 23, 2002 2:42:44 AM]

quote: Original post by Ironside
I''m pretty tired of people ragging on the current crop of MMORPG.[edited by - ironside on April 23, 2002 2:42:44 AM]

Ummm... who''s ragging on MMORPG''s? No one. Sure, Oleseyi has nothing but negative feelings towards it, but he has negative feelings towards everything and, therefore, has degraded the value of his opinion. However, everyone still takes his opinion to heart, regardless.

Everyone else here, even if they had negative things to say, were at least able to stick to the original subject of what we actually like about MMORPG''s.

I like to check in on the gamedev forums every once in a while because there is always something interesting but reading through a thread has become a tedious task. It''s just the same thing over and over:

Newbie: I have this interesting idea (well, interesting to a newbie, anyway). What do you think?

Oleseyi: I hate you and your idea. Arrr!

THE PEANUT GALLERY: Why does "everybody" hate --> PLACE SUBJECT HERE.

Coderx75: Ummm... who''s everybody?

I like differing opinions and am more than open to ''em. But isn''t it getting old? Oleseyi tries to dominate every thread and you let him do it. You get two or three messages down the line and noone is even on the same subject any more. Meanwhile, it could have been a very productive thread.

The only thread I''ve seen that actually stayed on course was Oleseyi''s own entitled "Narrative Interpolation". Which, by the way, was a damn good thread. *Bow* But if it isn''t his topic, he changes it to his topic. I was kind of interested to hear people share some MMORPG related experiences in this thread. Although there are a few, they are few.

Whether or not current CRPG''s (of any sort) are really RPG''s is not the topic. It''s frustrating.

- Jay


Get Tranced!

BTW, although I''m not much into the CRPG genre, I played Diablo II with two other friends on three computers set up in a single room. Although it just seems like a hack-and-slash, playing side by side brought back memories of my old AD&D days... only at 1000x the pace. I had a blast =)

And the reason I don''t play MMORPG''s? Cause I know I won''t know when to stop =b I had too much fun in my younger days playing the old CRPG''s (I mean really old: Wizard''s Crown, Bard''s Tale, Might & Magic). Playin'' online would be just too much for me ;-)

- Jay

Get Tranced!

quote: Sure 90% of these people have never experience the wildly amazing and wonderful world of tabletop role playing games.

Now, if you''d given me a good example of how good tabletop role playing games go, then you might''ve convinced me. Now you''re just telling me that the people who call EQ/AC/UO/Diablo RPGs would also call a tabletop game that is all about numbers/skills/levels/dice roll an RPG. In this case you in fact ARE comparing apples and apples. The very reason I don''t accept computer games that rely on combat only as rpgs is the same reason I don''t call tabletop games that rely on combat to be rpgs.

quote: And while you’re at it why you don’t pay some respect to the current crop of MMORPGs out there, they are paving the way to a new medium of entertainment that will likely change the face of gaming as we know it.

That''s exactly what scares me. I''m not saying that that new way will be bad per se, but I''m not sure either that that new way is going in the right direction.

I guess that instead of ''right direction'' I should say ''my direction''. Yes, all my views are personal. I want games to be catered to my wishes. Maybe my wishes are unrealistic, my desires absurd. Maybe that''s why I''m so frustrated. But how come that games from years ago are still on my hard drive while new games are usually only on there for the first few weeks while I play them? Must be me...

quote: Original post by coderx75
Ummm... who''s ragging on MMORPG''s? No one. Sure, Oleseyi has nothing but negative feelings towards it, but he has negative feelings towards everything and, therefore, has degraded the value of his opinion. However, everyone still takes his opinion to heart, regardless.

LOL, that''s the one of the funniest things i''ve read in a while! and your right, it was primairly Oleseyi''s comments taht annoyed me. I should learn to not be so easily bated

quote: Now you''re just telling me that the people who call EQ/AC/UO/Diablo RPGs would also call a tabletop game that is all about numbers/skills/levels/dice roll an RPG.

Unfortunatly, for many people who consider themselves ''role-players'', this is the case. It''s about achieving something, being powerful, building something. You can do it other ways, but usually getting really big numbers in skills and levels and good dice rolls is the easiest way to do it.

While what he said was a little inflaming, probably 75% of role-players are actually people who want to play Diablo with their friends. Why do you think that D&D 3rd Edition came out with a Diablo expansion?

quote: probably 75% of role-players are actually people who want to play Diablo with their friends

Couldn''t agree more.

But... do we call games like this RPG because people who think roleplay play the games?

I really, really think that there can be a better label found for games like this. Statistical Character Development or something silly.

OR

We can just agree that the label is entirely wrong, that RPG computer games have no roleplaying elements in it by default, and just go from there.