Part II...

Crouilla: "One more thing. I don''t think that anyone here was told that they should program games."

I imagine far more parents pressure their kids to become doctors. :-)

I never said boys were told that they should program games. I did suggest, though, that many girls may be told that they shouldn''t - or even worse, that they can''t. Even if boys aren''t actively encourged to program (and I think they are to some degree), it appears that girls are actively discouraged.

"Are you saying that these women should be forced to program games?"

Of course not. I''m saying they could be encouraged if they *want* to. I''m saying they could be told that it is a *possibility* and thus, a seed be planted. I''m saying that their being discouraged could be stopped. If we alter the way we behave culturally towards females in technology, and the number of females in technology stay the same, even though attitudes have changed, I won''t care! I only care as long as I see bias existing, and girls being told not to think about doing something they are perfectly capable of doing, if they *want* to.

"If they aren''t interested, they aren''t interested. Nobody made any of us interested except for ourselves."

Are there any hobbies/professions you think of as being for girls? Would you participate in them, knowing you might be the only boy? I hope so. But a lot of people don''t.

Have you ever had a programming mentor? What gender were they? Do you have programming peers you hang out with? What gender are they? Do you have favorite gaming magazines/programming websites? How often are they geared towards males? Is it possible that you have been influenced by your culture, and found encouragement in being a programmer because other guys are programmers, too? I think it''s possible for a lot of people, whether or not it is for you.

Kavos: "What do you mean by female-oriented or non-gender-biased? Do you mean a site ran by feminists who think all guys should burn?"

I meant what I said. If you think to former means the latter, I think you are confused. Do male-oriented sites think all females should burn? A few do, but most don''t. A few degrade women, but not all do. Many simply cater to boys, and *ignore* girls, rather than despising them. I don''t mind that at all. What I mind is the lack of girl-oriented sites to balance out guy-oriented sites. And there is definitely a need for gender-neutral sites, as well. We girls are quite capable of wanting to talk to other girls without bashing boys.

"I don''t know what you mean... I''ve been around the net for a while looking at game programming sites and have yet to find on that is geared towards female bashing or sexist crap."

Pretend you are a girl; better yet, get a girl you know and show her as many gaming sites as you can. Ask her if she can relate to any of them. Ask her if any of them come off to her as sexist, or harsh, or even bashing. Now do this with several girls. See if they feel the same way about it as you do.

"Your numbers seem alittle off to me..."

Then count your own numbers. Take all the information I suggested and go out and find surveys that have been done, research that has been presented, etc. and see if the figures are what I say. Do your own surveys, as well. But please, give the issue some thought. Imagine if you found a few of my comments were true, to some degree. Find out for yourself! Please! And let me know what you find out. I''m still studying this issue, myself.

"I would also like to know how old you are."

Not very. 23.

". If you think that because people don''t specifically look for female programmers on their project means they are sexist, then you have another thing coming."

Nah, they aren''t sexist. They''re just looking for the best programmer to do the job. I really meant that I, specifically, would hire women if my company was a majority of men -- even if the women were less qualified. That''s my issue. I''d probably be happy to see others do it, too, but I see no reason to pressure them. And I don''t expect it of them.

"Whatever gender you are, choose what you will do. Whether you are male or female, don''t expect people to go looking for you specifically."

I agree! My life philsophy is, "Do it yourself; no one else will do it for you." I still think it''s a good idea to plant the seed of possibility into young girls. To give them females examples to look up to. To encourage, rather than discourage, them. But it would be even better if they got the idea that they can do anything, regardless of whether or not they are outnumbered, or even discouraged. That''s a hard thing to realize, though.

"Most girls I know, including some of my best friends, don''t like computer games, and it''s sure as hell NOT because people "made" them not like them!"

Again, are these guy-oriented, guy-advertised, guy-designed games? Many games are. Few girls are going to like that. Few guys like playing girl-oriented, girl-advertised, girl-designed board games. Have you met your "mystery date?" Have you dressed up your barbie doll? We need more games that are gender-neutral, and some games that are girl-oriented before most girls will even consider playing them. Or we need to rethink gender altogether, and encourage our boys to play with barbie dolls while our girls play with cars.

"If people tell you that because you''re a girl you can''t do something, you know what they''re full of, so if you let it get to yourself it''s your problem, not theirs. And not ours."

Maybe it''s not directly your problem, but don''t you care when someone tells your little sister she''s a moron, or that what she does is wussy because it''s "girly"? It may be your problem, if it is the problem of people you care about. Certainly, it''s your problem if you accept the judgments others place on you. But look at how many people do this. Have you never been insulted and felt terrible about it? Have you never let another human being''s opinion of you influence your own? It is not a black-and-white issue. It is hard to do something that no one you know approves of or encourages you to do. Especially if you are a child; it is often during childhood that girls and boys decide what they can and can''t do. Think of something you wanted to do very badly or did do as a child that you got mocked for and maybe quit doing, because you were mocked or discouraged, or simply ignored.

"I, personally, have never seen anything sexist against males or females on this site,"

I do find this to be a very gender-neutral site, which is why I hoped a discussion about pssible gender issues might go over well. I haven''t seen any women-haters here at all.

"I mean, we -I''m talking about all of us around here- don''t try to scare girls or anything, as I said before, I''d be glad if there were more of them."

An awful lot of guys have expressed how they wish to see more girls in programming, here and elsewhere. But what have you *done* about it? Mind you, you don''t have to do *anything* if you don''t want to. But don''t expect it to change if no one does anything about it, like find out *why* there are more guys than girls. And then act on it. What IF girls really ARE influenced by are culture, and really are discouraged or ignored when it comes to learning math or programming? You could change that, couldn''t you? And everyone here. By relating to girls, and teaching them these things in a way they''d understand them. By getting involved in groups that mentor girls. Even just by planting seeds - suggesting to young girls that math is interesting, regardless of gender, and that anyone can program and that computer games can be for girls, too.

"In fact I''m often told hiding behind a screen all day is a terrible waste of time."

Perhaps, that is what society has told them, and perhaps that is why they aren''t interested. Imagine if you could show them exactly why gaming is fun, and what you get out of it. Imagine if they understood, and in understanding, began to enjoy the very things you do.

"In other words, you can''t say men are better than women, and you can''t say women are better than men. You also can''t say men and women are equal ."

I know I didn''t say any of these things. :-) I tend to think that men and women, ultimately, are all individuals. *Human beings* can be capable of equal intelligence, or lesser/greater intelligence, among all other attributes humans have. As long as it is assumed that women are less capable of, say, doing math, women will be separated as a group and so will men, when they are all, ultimately, individuals. When they are *not* equal, but neither are they *unequal* simply because of their gender. When both guys and girls are given opportunities and encouraged to do things as individuals, the gender issue will cease to be. I see girls being biased against, but that really means to me that both genders are being biased against and I see no reason for it.

"(Profitable, marketable) game companies make games for one reason -- profit. Profit lies in supplying a need to consumers for a price. If there were a market for female gamers, producers would make female games. Not the other way around."

Assumption: Companies make assumptions. The industry makes assumptions. The industry sells what has sold in the past. Since games aimed at boys 8-12 have sold in the past, the industry makes games for them. The industry *assumes* there is no market for females, or only a small market, based on no evidence: they assume it because it hasn''t been done. Business-wise, I think this is foolish. What''s the wisdom in assuming that there are no oceans simply because you haven''t seen one? I prefer the idea of gender-neutral games, but I have considered making girl-oriented games to break through that border. There is a huge market out there that is untapped. And it could make me rich; it could make the industry rich if they stopped assuming that girls don''t play, based on the "fact" that no one has encouraged girls to play.

"(And I really don''t know where you got those figures!)"

They surprised me, too, until I read the breakdown in a pie. They didn''t just include games like strategy and shooter, they included computer versions of board games, card games, and other such games. They *are* games, so this made sense. And when you put those games in with the guy-oriented games, it actually turned out that around 50% of players were female. It''s just that females were playing games they already assumed were interesting to them, such as gin or poker. So women *do* use computers and *do* play computer games. However, they do *not* play male-oriented games, for the most part. And male-oriented games dominate fiction games, strategy, adventure, sim, and other things. Imagine if they didn''t dominate, how many more women would play.

"Many of the people here want to make games because they see a need not being fulfilled (usually it''s their own, but that can be a need in itself, no?)."

That''s what I''m doing here.

"If there was a market for female gamers, and no companies (or very few companies) were producing female-oriented games, female programmers would spring up trying to make female games."

A few have. But this is a huge assumption to make. Just because there is a need does not mean it will get filled. Because of culture. Women were perfectly capable of voting all along; but for hundreds of years they did not even try to get the vote, because they assumed - as their culture told them - that they were too foolish or ignorant to vote. They had to first abandon that assumption and second fight for the right to vote. They didn''t do that until after the war showed them that they were, indeed, capable of functioning in a man''s world. Many women worked in the war who never had before, and had never thought they could. They discovered that they had abilities they didn''t know about. Perhaps if more girls were shown that computer games could, indeed, be made for them and then shown that girls themselves could make these games, the female market would increase by leaps and bounds.

"If there''s a need, there''s a niche. People will get jobs fulfilling it, because it''s an easy source of untapped profit."

They have to assume, first, that there *is* a need and *is* a profit to be made. Most companies in the industry are assuming that girls don''t play games, and so they don''t make games for girls. This prevents girls from ever trying games, and thus making a market. They cut their own throats, even though there is lots of profit to be had.

"why aren''t there more female games? "

How many games for girls have *you* made? How many have the guys you know made?

"The tools to create good games are cheap -- dirt cheap. You don''t have to program for ten years, have degrees in college, and have $10,000 worth of software to create a good, marketable game."

How many girls do you know who know this? How many girls have you told?

"Women are not involved in the industry much, but this is why: people prioritize things. They rate things according to what they''d like to do, and according to what they must do. Many women (obviously) have other things they''d rather be doing."

So you *assume*.

"This is obvious because of the fact that there just aren''t that many female game programmers."

There aren''t many female football players, either. That''s funny ... they never encourage girls to play football in school or college. That''s funny ... fathers assume their daughters don''t like football and don''t play it with them. That''s funny ... girls almost *can''t* play football because everyone assumes they *won''t*. Whoever gave them the opportunity to TRY? How many programming dads take time with their little girls to show them how to program? If you are a dad, I hope you do, and don''t just assume she''d rather play with barbie dolls.

Can you tell I was raised in a house with five boys? Raised by a father who set no gender boundaries? I played with the boys, like the boys, around the boys. I loved it! But I have to wonder - seriously wonder - if my father had not sat me down at a computer and taught me how to use one ... would I be interested in programming today? Or would I have assumed that being a girl, I shouldn''t be interested in things too "boring" or "complicated" for me?

"Calling them stupid and making like they''re manipulated isn''t going to help them much."

They aren''t stupid. :-) And if they do allow themselves to be manipulated, they need to know it so that they can stop behaving that way, if they want to. But sometimes it needs to be pointed out to you before you realized just how you''ve been influenced by something or someone.

"Many people do think that because some women don''t like programming, all women don''t like programming. This is (obviously) wrong, and caused by confusing the two types of inherent differences."

Agreed. Some women will never like programming. I''m not interested in making them like it. I''m interested in all the little girls who never even knew about programming, or assumed without having tried it, that it wasn''t for them. I''m interested in finding all the little girls who might have enjoyed programming, but didn''t because of assumptions, and society, and gender issues.

"My opinion is that they should be allowed to decide whether they want to make games -- not as a group or a gender but as individuals."

I agree. But that is not what I see happening *right now*. What I see happening, is girls are being left out, and even in some cases smothered, simply because they are girls.

"If there''s a female programmer and a male programmer of equal programming ability (note: I compared ability here), it would be a hard choice of which to hire."

If women were the minority, I would hire the woman. If men were the minority, I would hire the man. To encourage the minority to grow. To make sure somebody is paying attention to both genders, all individuals. But that is my choice, and my opinion alone.

"You won''t find an unbiased person in a game company. You won''t find an unbiased person anywhere. Many people here are not biased against women -- that problem is relatively unimportant here."

Many people here are *not* women, and that causes an unintentional problem; it causes women to be ignored. And by "here" I don''t really mean the website. I mean the industry. It''s absolutely true people have preferences. Most people try to program the types of games they like to play; ones they played when they were young. If girls don''t have games to play when they are young, they are less likely to try to make them when they are older. But for there to be games for girls, the industry has to start making them. That means that guy programmers have to be willing to make games that may not be interesting to them, specifically. They have to stretch. Not many people do that. And so nothing much changes. And girls continue to be left out. Not intentional, but it happens.

fuzzyai: "i know because i am one. but there are so many little things that you don''t even notice."

Thank you for noticing! I hope others notice, too.

"and Ack, i''ve not seen any female oriented sites. i''ve seen some that are rather blatantly gender-biased, but GameDev here seems to me to be a really great site."

I''ve actually found a few women gamer sites! But most sites are, indeed, aimed solely at males. And all of the gaming magazine I have read are. As for programming sites, many of them are neutral and some of them are male-oriented. None of them are female-oriented, though I did find a couple sites that were by female programmers; just not about female programmers.

Anonymous: "I don''t know really how I got interested. I suppose it was just in the house, and my brother wanted someone to play against."

Yay for your brother! It''s good he encouraged you, if only so that he would have someone to play with!

"I know that I was never told that I wouldn''t be any good at programming. Many of my peers and teachers also consider me to be one of the school''s gurus."

Were you encouraged when it came to computers? Wonderful! I wish it happened more often.

"Also, quite a few gaming magazines are too masculine for my tastes. There are just too many near-pornographic images/references and macho things for me. I received an unsolicited sample magazine with that featured an interview with a buxom B-actress (who''s the model for a game) and a few photographs to go along. Ick. This was a huge turn-off for me."

And for many women! If women can''t even get into gaming (through gaming magazines or advertisements), how hard will it be for most of them to get into programming?

Jim: "Wow, what magazines are you guys reading? I don''t find any pornographic material (near or otherwise) in gaming magazines through which i might browse."

Perhaps women see things as pornographic that you do not. Take a few issues of magazines you read and ask a few women you know if those magazines appear sexist or bothersome to them in any way. You might learning something new!

"Anyway, just becuase the magazines are geared towards men doesn''t mean that girls can''t still enjoy games. There is nothing even remotely sexual about any of the mario games."

Girls can enjoy games, but it''s awfully hard if you''re being constantly reminded that the games is ignoring or demeaning your gender. Mario: he''s a boy. His pals are boys. And the girl in the games? She''s a helpless princess who needs rescuing. Actually, mario isn''t very offensive and I''ve enjoyed playing Mario games. But he is giving out a subtle messages, and subtle messages can be the worst kind of all.

"And I also don''t think that it''s due to the fact that women have "better things to do". Women do a lot of things that many guys would categorize as "a waste of time", but that doesn''t stop them."

I agree with that!

". I just think that many girls don''t like video games."

Video games not aimed at them, not marketed at them, not even made for or by them.

"If you don''t like the magazone don''t read it. Magazines will cater to men because the majority of there readers are male."

And what magazine SHALL I read? The non-existent gender-neutral ones? The non-existent girl-oriented ones? Please tell me, where shall I go for my information on computer games if not to the only sites that *exist*?

"Ack, when I was in college for computer programming at least half of my class was female, so give your grill a chill. Maybe if you feel that strongly you could write a game and quit inciting social unrest!"

Social unrest encourages people to think. ;-) I took a series of programming evening courses. A fourth most classes were female, and a few dropped out before it was over. I was the only female there under 30. All of the women in my class were going into database managment or some other thing; none of them were considering game programming. I asked them why; most said that they didn''t find computer games interesting. Some even gave me the impression they thought computer games were only for young boys, or immature men. One had played Myst (that huge bestseller that was bought by as many women as men and, if you''ll notice, was pretty gender-neutral).

Your class had women; that does not mean all classes have women. That does not mean there is no gender issue. What I have read suggests that women are the minorities in *all* fields of programming, but are the smallest minority in *game* programming. I wanted to know why, so I started to research the subject. And my posts here are filled with the results of what I have found so far. The # of females in your class will be added in my mind to my results. Perhaps we are already on the rise? Most of what I have read suggests that if we are, the increase is miniscule. But still an increase!

"Why would a woman choose to play or not to play a game based on whether or not it''s "geared" toward women?"

Because they want to play characters that look like them. Because they like to hang out with other girls. Because of this or that or this. There are many reasons. You and I are unusual, fel. We can play with the guys and not mind. But I''ve noticed (and I bet you have to) that there are a lot of girls who want to play with other girls and will be less inclined to play something if it is oriented towards guys. I''m guessing this is cultural.

Why do men choose to play games that are geared towards guys? Some do, some don''t. How many guys here play games specifically oriented at girls?

"Why are people so concerned with reaching the female market specifically? You''re just as likely to get a female to play a really good non-gender based game as you are to get them to play a gender-based game, and then guys would buy it too."

Because the female market and the non-gender market are both almost non-existent. They could both exist *and* thrive. Why not? Why not have female-oriented games for girls who want to play girls and male-oriented games for guys who want to play guys and gender-neutral games for everyone?

"Why are people so concerned about the low numbers of female game programmers?"

Some people are curious about the low numbers, and want to understand them. Some people are concerned that the low numbers aren''t "natural", but influenced by society. That maybe girls who would love being programmers aren''t, becuase they''ve been denied the chance to or because they''ve been told not to be interested.

"How many guys do you know that make quilts as a hobby?"

How many guys do you know who have *tried* making quits as a hobby? How many of them don''t because it''s too "girly" a thing to do? Is your image of quilt-making feminine or gender-neutral? Many, MANY men sew. Millions of men in millions of cultures have sewed for a living, and not minded. They have sewed tribal clothes or town''s clothing, or suits for their superiors. They never associated sewing with the female gender because their culture did not. Our culture heavily associates sewing of all kinds with being female. Many men, even in this day, would be embarrassed to say, "I''m in a quilting club."

"As a female game programming freelancer I guarantee that the lack of females isn''t a result of any hostility"

There is some hostility. But not as much as in some other careers. Mostly, I think girls simply get *ignored* or mildly discouraged, which can be just as effective.

"To the people upset about the gaming magazines... ummm... have you ever actually looked at an issue of Cosmopolitan or any of the other women-oriented magazines?"

The problem isn''t that guy''s magazines are biased towards guys. That makes sense. The problem is that there ARE NO game magazine biased towards girls. There don''t even seem to be any GENDER-NEUTRAL game magazines.

"What game programming sites are non-gender-biased? Most of them, that I''ve seen. I have yet to find a male-biased site."

Quite happily, in my websurfing, I have found most programming sites to be very gender-neutral. I wish there were as many gaming websites that were gender-neutral. But as I said before, I have yet to find one programming site that is female-biased. Gaming sites, a few. Programming sites, none.

"See any guys complaining that Duke Nukem is too muscle-bound?"

Stereotypically, guys *want* to be muscle-bound, so they''re not going to complain. Stereotypically, guys *want* girl characters with big tits and little clothes.
Stereotypically, girls don''t want these things, and are even upset by them.
Stereotypically, girls want to be *beautiful* not buxom. How many "beautiful but not buxom" characters ARE there in computer games? There are a couple in console games, but I don''t see them in computer games.

Mmm. Sorry, but I refuse to be a victim of society.

I''m sure that for every possible bad thing in my life I could find someone in society to blame. Maybe my true calling in life is to be a brain surgeon, but because that one teacher back in the 5th grade.... whatever.

The question I suppose would be... are they worse off with what they''re doing? Would I be happier as a brain surgeon? I don''t know. I doubt it. Everything in your life affects you, but it''s solely your responsibility to make the effects of it positive.

Would more women be happier if they were encouraged to be programmers? I''ve seen women who had the encouragement to be engineers beaten into them, just because people (their parents, mostly) thought there should be more women engineers. They weren''t cut out for it. They were miserable. The smart ones left and tried another major. They''re much happier because their new choices fit them much better... I know, they were my suitemates my freshman year of college. I happen to be cut out to be a programmer. I love it. This doesn''t mean every woman should love it. I happen to do game programming as a hobby. This doesn''t mean that a woman who loves flower arranging (a more "traditional" hobby for a woman) has a less valid hobby or is unhappy because her hobby is more traditional. This doesn''t mean she would be happy writing games (nor does it mean she wouldn''t).

I think it''s important to allow people to explore what they wish to do, and to make sure people understand that it is their responsibility, and theirs alone, to make the most of their lives in whatever they have been gifted to do. I don''t care what gender, race, creed, etc, you come from. There will be many discouraging forces in your life no matter what you choose to try, but it''s your responsibility to focus on the encouraging forces, and seek them out. I would hope that this forum and this community is one of those encouraging forces, for anyone who wishes to learn, regardless of who or what they are.

There are far too many people sitting on their tails whining about society putting them there, when if they just got up and made an effort, they would most likely succeed.

-fel

Second post made while I was writing that last one.

I have never looked at a game and said "Good lord, this is SOOO male biased!" I don't think of it that way. When I write a game or look at a game, I think "This is for people who like board games on the computer". Gender has no bearing. Check out Diablo. Some of the best mages I know from that game are women. Some of the best rogues are male. It's pixels, folks. Don't take it personally.

For that matter, I don't like Tomb Raider. It's not the character, I just don't like FPS games. I don't care who it's oriented at. I don't like the game style. I love RPG's. I don't care what gender my character is. I have yet to meet a female RPG player (and I know a lot of them) who even thinks about the fact that their character is male, much less gets upset about it. By the way... in response to your comment on guys wanting to look like Duke Nukem... I would LOVE to look like Lara Croft!!!

I really would like to see a programming site hostile to women. I need a URL. I have yet to see a site with a big "no women allowed sign on it". I don't mean to be insulting or anything, but isn't it a wee bit hypocritical to say "Male-oriented game programming sites are EVIL!" and then turn around and ask for female-oriented sites?

I really don't understand why some techie women have huge chips on their shoulders. Women like that scare me. Women like that will actually cause men to be hostile to them and to future women coworkers, because they're so hostile to the men.

I have had many mentors throughout my life of both genders. Mentoring is not a gender based thing, at least it shouldn't be. Mentoring is about someone taking someone else under their wing, and helping them over the rough spots. Mentoring is one of the best friendships you can ever have, especially when the student becomes good enough to help the teacher in return.

-fel

Edited by - felisandria on 3/6/00 4:37:17 PM

As for the magazine thing:

Grab the nearest copy of Time or Newsweek. Flip through the ads. Figure out who they are aimed at. It isn''t the magazine''s fault that the advertisers want to aim at a certain group of people. From what I''ve seen, the gaming magazines I read aren''t biased in the articles in the least. For that matter, in this magazine *holds up a copy of Computer Gaming World, that being all she has on hand at the moment* I only found 4 advertisements (out of approximately 40) that I would deem truly male-oriented. The others have lots of pictures of cars, knights in shining armor, and random screenshots. Don''t let a few advertisements put you on the warpath. That''s like getting upset because your copy of Reader''s Digest has 3 ads concerning male pattern baldness.

-fel

i haven''t had time to read all the postings on this topic yet, but i would jjust like to add to it my opinions. i am a 15 year old girl, and i program games. i love playing games, and i have done ever since i was about 5 and played my first game. i couldn''t disagree more with those who say girls don''t play games, because virtually every girl i know owns a playstation. all my friends think it''s cool that i program games, both guys and girls - one guy who''s one of my best friends and me are gonna work on a game, as soon as we get a good idea for one. i just thought i''d say that girls do do games as much as guys.

Fel: "I''m sure that for every possible bad thing in my life I could find someone in society to blame."

Society *isn''t* to blame. Or rather, if there is a gender gap in programming and gaming (which I think there is), WE are to blame. It just happens that we are society. I am not blaming a lump of nameless "others" within a society I am "seperate" from. I am asking *us* - real people as opposed to a faceless "society" - do we subconsciously and unintentionally leave girls out when it comes to programming and gaming? Do we put up gender walls? And ***if*** we do, could we stop? What shall we do, if anything, about it?

"I think it''s important to allow people to explore what they wish to do"

That is exactly what I think.

"and to make sure people understand that it is their responsibility, and theirs alone, to make the most of their lives in whatever they have been gifted to do."

This is very important. It''s unlikely that they''ll understand this as long as they''re told, subconsciously or consciously, through culture or family, by mentors or teachers, that they are limited by their gender.

On a less dramatic note, wouldn''t it be NICE if girls who want to play girl-oriented games HAD girl-oriented games to play???? And I mean more than just Barbie.

"The question I suppose would be... are they worse off with what they''re doing?"

The questions I would ask would be, "Why did they deny themselves the chance to be something else? Were they denied the chance? Why NOT let them HAVE the chance, even if they turn it down?" Lots of women don''t vote, but they can ... and just as importantly ... they KNOW they can. It''s important to know, and I don''t think a lot of women know that women - or rather, anyone - can enjoy programming and/or computers and/or math and science.

"There are far too many people sitting on their tails whining about society putting them there, when if they just got up and made an effort, they would most likely succeed."

Why do you think I brought this up? Why do you think I consider things like making my own female-oriented programming site or making gender-neutral games? I''m not going to sit on my duff. So maybe other people are; if they are, I''m going to encourage them to get off their duffs. I can''t force them, but I sure am going to plant seeds, in the hopes that they will act *if* they want to. I perceive something that concerns me (gender biases in gaming and programming). Rather than sit on my concerns, I have spoken up about them. Everyone else here spoke up about *their* concerns. We have all acted on our beliefs. Good for us! Let''s act some more. You keep doing the games you were playing and programming, since they are the ones that matter to you. Since you see no gender issue, don''t spend time sweating about it. Do as you will! :-) And I will do as I will; I will continue to talk about it, as long as I feel there *may* be a problem (I don''t have to be positive there is one; just concerned). I will make my gender-neutral games. And I will probably make a few girl-oriented games and see if I can nab those millions going to waste because no one sees a potential market that is simply being missed. I don''t *mind* that you don''t see what I see. I just wanted to plant the seed of perception; to present the *possibility* that there are issues here, and that you and I and anyone here could influence and change those issues.

If I say anymore, I run the risk of repeating myself too much. Thanks for all the responses. For me, it''s more input and more research and I appreciate it. :-)

Women do have the chance to do whatever they wish to do. There are no laws against it. Regardless of your gender or whatever, there will be people telling you what you can and cannot do. It is your responsibility to choose whether or not to listen.

-fel

Thank you, fel,

I restrained myself from making a long-winded post in yet another response to her flame-baiting, but, since you can say it from her side of the fence, yours is much more effective.

Truth be told, not everybody falls into stereotypes. If I had followed the "stereotypical" life from my childhood, I would either be a criminal, dirt-poor, or holding Klan meetings in my back yard. I''m none of the above, yet all of my life, there were "subconscious" messages telling me I should be. (In fact, I''m a fairly well-off software engineer who is married to a beautiful Indian woman -- how''s that for irony? By the way, in typically non-male fashion, I love to cook, clean the house as much as my wife, and like to garden. I''m as dangerous to let loose in a housewares store with a pocketful of cash as I am in a game store.)

So I''m supposed to believe that if I, and millions of others, can overcome our own stereotypes, that these women and girls can''t make up their own minds to do what they want? A lot of guys like to do male-type things. A lot of women like to do female-type things. Are we as angry that there aren''t as many male florists as female florists, or do we conveniently forget those arguments when it''s contrary to what we believe? (and, no, I don''t have numbers to support my florist statement, but I think everyone gets the point)

Frankly, I want to see more women in technology. I would like to see some new ideas for games (frankly, I think the concepts of many "guy" programmers are getting a little old) -- not just female-oriented games, but I would love to see some things like gender-neutral FPS games -- but how do you do that?

Violence appeals to guys more than girls. That''s a fact. Puzzles appeal to both, so a good FPS game would be one like Half-Life, which incorporated some complicated thinking in with the bloodbath.

Many games, such as RPGs, are completely gender-neutral. The only one that recently made a difference between men and women was Baldur''s Gate. Besides that, it was a downright fantastic game that you could complete just as easily with either sex. Finally, games like the Resident Evil series blow the sexist component right out of the water by allowing for strong female leads.

So, Ack, you''ve spent a lot of time preaching to the choir here. If you wanted to flame people about your concerns, you should have picked a board that wasn''t so gender-neutral.

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

Ack: You have good points, no doubt. And good for you in pursuing what you so strongly believe in. But I''m afraid you lack tact.

Your original post was a simple "How many female gamers are on this board"?

Several of us responded, saying that there weren''t many female programmers or SERIOUS female gamers, and that we wished there were more (I don''t recall a single reply to your original post saying "Women programmers suck").

You proceeded to pick apart people''s posts, and make the board collectively feel like WE''RE the reason that these girls and women don''t want to program. Rather than saying "We should help introduce women to programming", you if effect say, "Duh. This is a male-dominated society and group, and YOU''RE holding women out of it."

What you were greeted with was natural human responses to the feeling of being attacked. And if you don''t start using more thought and less emotion when responding to people, especially when those responses were unprovoked, you''ll not only totally avoid getting your point across, but you''ll alienate anyone that you were trying to convince of your point in the first place (like you almost did here).

And THAT would be a tragedy, since I feel that you''ve got a good message (and, trust me, I''ve tried countless times to convince many people, men and women alike, that programming and technology is something that they would enjoy doing).

Just work on the delivery of that message.

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

Ack, exactly what kind of "subconcious" things do we do to prevent women from gaming or programming?
i would love to see more girls get into gaming, but the fact remains that girls can think for themselves, and if they feel like gaming or programming, they will do it.
you said you were 23, which makes you a bit older than me. i can tell you from experience that kids in high school now are different from when you were in high school. individualism is becoming more and more important. most kids these days will most likely offer a sharp retort if told that they cannot or should not do something because of their gender, and probably won''t be effected by the comment. that''s all i''ve got time for now...


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