One more thing. I don''t think that anyone here was told that they should program games. Frankly, more than a share of us was probably told that we were (or are) idiots for programming games -- especially for those teenagers on the board. However, we continued to do it because we loved it.

Are you saying that these women should be forced to program games? If they aren''t interested, they aren''t interested. Nobody made any of us interested except for ourselves.

Also, about the hiring thing... in about year, I do about 50-60 interviews for my team, a large portion of which are women (some of which I''ve even hired, *GASP*). Frankly, I don''t care about sex, race, or anything -- I will NOT be told to hire someone JUST because they are a woman if they aren''t the most qualified. Besides being just plain stupid, that''s immoral and illegal.

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

What do you mean by female-oriented or non-gender-biased? Do you mean a site ran by feminists who think all guys should burn? I don't know what you mean... I've been around the net for a while looking at game programming sites and have yet to find on that is geared towards female bashing or sexist crap.

I don't what this to turn into a guy/girl bashing post (it would never end if I did, heh)

Your numbers seem alittle off to me...

I don't have any problem with women in the game/programming industry but hiring them on the sole fact that they are female is wrong!

I would love to hear what your have to say Ack, and I would also like to know how old you are. I'm 15

-Trev



Edited by - Kavos on 3/5/00 3:46:24 AM

Although this post is quickly descending into a flame war, I'm gonna help it descend because this is the kind of thing that really pisses me off. If you think that because people don't specifically look for female programmers on their project means they are sexist, then you have another thing coming.

So, Ack, if you want to "discuss the gender issue" here I am to discuss it with you. And if it sounds like I'm bashing you, it's because you basically just bashed everybody here.

Point 1) Side note: HTML is NOT programming. I'm not saying this to be stuck up, but it's not, except for scripting, and DHTML. HTML is a file format, you are basically typing out documents, but you don't access memory, or make the computer DO anything, therefore, just because it's typing, it's not programming!

Point 2) Whatever gender you are, choose what you will do. Whether you are male or female, don't expect people to go looking for you specifically. If you think people should be looking for females, and turning down males, then you are the sexist one.

Point 3) Most girls I know, including some of my best friends, don't like computer games, and it's sure as hell NOT because people "made" them not like them! They have things to do which they consider better. Too bad.

Point 4) Agreeing with what crouilla said, girls can think for themselves. I know some girls who do what they do and have their opinions because of what OTHER people say. And I also know some guys who think like this. But all the people I know like this aren't of the caliber to program anyway. It's time people started making their own minds. If people tell you that because you're a girl you can't do something, you know what they're full of, so if you let it get to yourself it's your problem, not theirs. And not ours.

Please respond to this. I'm curious as to what you have to say. I, personally, have never seen anything sexist against males or females on this site, or any other programming site I've ever been to, except posts like yours.

Take care

------------------------------
Jonathan Little
invader@hushmail.com
http://www.crosswinds.net/~uselessknowledge

Edited by - Qoy on 3/5/00 2:44:57 AM

I''d be glad if there were more girls interested in computers and programming. In my real life outside the net I''ve never met a girl who knows how to write computer games. Although I''m convinced that guys aren''t smarter or more talented in technical issues it seems to me that there are much more guys interested in programming than girls. This may be an educational or society problem or not a problem at all. I mean, we -I''m talking about all of us around here- don''t try to scare girls or anything, as I said before, I''d be glad if there were more of them. But most of the girls I know have other hobbies or other things to do which they consider more important. In fact I''m often told hiding behind a screen all day is a terrible waste of time.
So, I believe there is no "gender issue" because nobody is forced to play or write computergames and nobody is forced not to do so. Nobody can prove that either girls or guys are smarter or anything like that. If there were more girls interested in this topics, there would be more girls writing games etc. and that''s why I think the whole debate is quite useless.

(if so why am I writing all this?)

(Please bear with any mistakes in this reply -- it''s quite long and I don''t have time to proofread it extensively right now.)

There are several myths concerning men and women in general, and men and women as game programmers:


MYTH #1 -- MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL

This one''s subtle, but should be rather obvious once you ask yourself the following question: "How do I compare men to women?" The answer: you can''t. There''s no standard of comparison. You can compare men to men (if there is a completely unbiased source -- which, btw, doesn''t exist in the human race). You can compare women to women. You can compare people to people. But you can''t compare a man to a woman. Didn''t you learn that in first grade when the teacher said: "You can''t compare apples and oranges"?

In other words, you can''t say men are better than women, and you can''t say women are better than men. You also can''t say men and women are equal . (Words of comparison are in bold type).

Second, to compare two things of different types, you need a completely unbiased source. There isn''t a person who isn''t either a man or a woman!


MYTH #2 -- WOMEN AREN''T IN THE INDUSTRY BECAUSE OF MALE BIAS

This one''s easy, once you know two basic rules of economics:


RULE #1 -- PROFITS MAKE THE WORLD GO ROUND

(Profitable, marketable) game companies make games for one reason -- profit. Profit lies in supplying a need to consumers for a price. If there were a market for female gamers, producers would make female games. Not the other way around. (And I really don''t know where you got those figures!)


RULE #2 -- CONSUMERS RULE

Many of the people here want to make games because they see a need not being fulfilled (usually it''s their own, but that can be a need in itself, no?). If there was a market for female gamers, and no companies (or very few companies) were producing female-oriented games, female programmers would spring up trying to make female games.

If there''s a need, there''s a niche. People will get jobs fulfilling it, because it''s an easy source of untapped profit. Producers will follow profit to the ends of the earth. The free market system constantly adjusts both labor and profits to the changing needs of the consumers. If the free market system didn''t do this, it would have broken down from the very point of it''s conception (and communism would work ). Incidentally, this game development website was created to fulfill a niche -- a growing amount of people who wish to create games. If there weren''t people who wanted to create games, creating this website would have been an extremely stupid waste of time. It just wouldn''t make any sense without consumers in control!


Okay, now that we have those rules squared away, why aren''t there more female games? The tools to create good games are cheap -- dirt cheap. You don''t have to program for ten years, have degrees in college, and have $10,000 worth of software to create a good, marketable game. Side note:This website was also founded to provide a lot of free services to people who are interested in getting into the game industry. Finding good talent on this website isn''t hard, either. For $30, you can buy a book and teach yourself to code. You can ask questions on this forum if you want! I don''t know of any invisible barriers keeping women from coding...


Consumers motivate producers through profits. You apparently believe that producers control consumers through profits. Fortunately, that idea only exists in a society without a free market.

Women are not involved in the industry much, but this is why: people prioritize things. They rate things according to what they''d like to do, and according to what they must do. Many women (obviously) have other things they''d rather be doing. This is obvious because of the fact that there just aren''t that many female game programmers. Calling them stupid and making like they''re manipulated isn''t going to help them much. Give them credit for choosing what they want -- programming is not something everyone has to do. There are inherent differences between men and women, but there are also inherent differences between individuals . Since all people have a mixture of their gender-specific inherent differences, and their own inherent differents (sometimes called personal preferences), many people confuse the two. Many people do think that because some women don''t like programming, all women don''t like programming. This is (obviously) wrong, and caused by confusing the two types of inherent differences.

I don''t hate female programmers, I like them. I''m not biased towards them. My opinion is that they should be allowed to decide whether they want to make games -- not as a group or a gender but as individuals. If there''s a female programmer and a male programmer of equal programming ability (note: I compared ability here), it would be a hard choice of which to hire. I''ll tell you something that many people don''t understand: every person has opinions on what they like and don''t like; therefore, every person is biased to some degree. You won''t find an unbiased person in a game company. You won''t find an unbiased person anywhere. Many people here are not biased against women -- that problem is relatively unimportant here. People look for two things in this forum: 1) social skills and 2) programming skills. Both are useless without the other. The differences between men and women simply don''t matter here!

Finally, programming ability is NOT the all-inclusive factor in game development. Attitude has a lot to do with it, too. Social skills are extremely important in game development! Read these two articles:

http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/killers1/
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/killers2/

There are many other articles speaking on this subject here at this web site. On any game project that''s going to be marketed (and many that aren''t going to be marketed) proper communication among members of the development team is paramount.

Good Luck!


- null_pointer

i''m not trying to add flames to the fire, but in my personal opinion, some of the things that have been said on this thread are rather naive. i think that every person should be judged on their own merits, with no consideration of gender or race. this is ideal. however, we do not live in an ideal world. all of our society is thoroughly permeated with biases, most of which aren''t all that obvious and easy to see.
it''s extremely easy as a white male to just say that everyone is equal. i know because i am one. but there are so many little things that you don''t even notice. a elementary school teacher who expects that boys will do better in math than girls, and thus teaches his/her class in a manner that perpetuates it.
some people here are using feminism like it''s racism or something. granted, there are feminists out there who fit the "manhating dyke" stereotype. but i know plenty of feminists (including my best friend) who are not. i personally don''t consider myself a feminist because of a certain amount of shameful apathy.

and Ack, i''ve not seen any female oriented sites. i''ve seen some that are rather blatantly gender-biased, but GameDev here seems to me to be a really great site.

Maybe a different perspective now...
I''m a black female who''s always been into games (ever since the Atari 2600). Now I''ve recently gotten interested in programming (not just games). I don''t know really how I got interested. I suppose it was just in the house, and my brother wanted someone to play against. Anyway, there''s only one other girl I know in my town who''s a gamer. The rest prefer the trivia/puzzle-type games. That''s just how it is. I''ve tried to show my best friend the joys of gaming, but it''s just not working. I also think that this has nothing to with any differences in the male/female brain. I know quite a few girls that outscore guys in math. I don''t think that they are/were discouraged and had to overcome any huge barriers either. I know that I was never told that I wouldn''t be any good at programming. Many of my peers and teachers also consider me to be one of the school''s gurus.

As to why there aren''t more girl''s into gaming, I really don''t know. I agree with what many people have already said. Many girl''s have things higher on their priority lists. Also, quite a few gaming magazines are too masculine for my tastes. There are just too many near-pornographic images/references and macho things for me. I received an unsolicited sample magazine with that featured an interview with a buxom B-actress (who''s the model for a game) and a few photographs to go along. Ick. This was a huge turn-off for me. Maybe that''s how other females feel about it. So I think it could be a matter of game companies perpetuating a male-oriented atmosphere. Remember Lara Croft?

Fuzzyai also had a good point about prejudices. You don''t have to go around in white robes and hoods to be bigoted. People unconsiously discriminate against people. I have a friend who honestly believes that Arkansas'' standardized test scores are the lowest (or second lowest) in the nation because of black people. After a few failed attempts to show him the fallacy in his belief, I just gave up. It''s little things such as that that may affect how you treat a person when you first meet them. That''s really all I can think of right now to say on the subject.

i have to agree with the anonymous poster: many games and
game magazines are definitely marketed toward males.
especially the magazines.

oh, and what discussion of female gamers/game designers would be complete without bringing up Stevie "Killcreek" Case..

Wow, what magazines are you guys reading? I don''t find any pornographic material (near or otherwise) in gaming magazines through which i might browse. Anyway, just becuase the magazines are geared towards men doesn''t mean that girls can''t still enjoy games. There is nothing even remotely sexual about any of the mario games. And I''ve never met a woman who has been interested in them. (Then again, I don''t meet many in the first place.) And I also don''t think that it''s due to the fact that women have "better things to do". Women do a lot of things that many guys would categorize as "a waste of time", but that doesn''t stop them. I just think that many girls don''t like video games. I have specualtions that involve biological/physiological/psychologicol reasoning, but they won''t be revealed here.

The post was about how many of us game programmers are women. So how many? Out of the 15 are so unique posters, I believe that 2 of them admitted to being female and into games. I couldn''t tell if the last anonymous poster was actually a programmer or not. So i would guess about 10% of game programmers are women.

I''m the same anon as before...
The magazine that I''m refering to is Incite PC Gaming. The web address is www.incitegames.com. I was exaggerating a bit about the pornography, but the picures in here are still questionable. The game is Heavy Metal. This is just really for Jim Ross. No one literally meant that games are a waste of time. We were speaking the the non-gaming female''s perspective. So we are in agreement about women just not liking games. The fact that magazines are geared towards men certainly don''t stop me from playing them. Also, I''m what you would call a newbie programmer. So no, I don''t program. I suppose that I''m an anomaly judging from the other posts.