What kind of messages can one insert in a game and how can this be achieved? 1) Through story and game art. Complete and direct freedom of expression. Just tell the player your message. The problem is that the message is not part of the game, and can and will be largely ignored, because it cannot influence the gameplay. So hanging a Mona-Lisa on the walls of a Duke Nukem level isn''t likely to get much attention. Combining story with useful game information (Thief) is a possible solution. 2) Through gameplay This is the better and more subtle way to pack a message in a game, because all the players will have to pay close attention to the message, although the messages that can be sent are limited a lot. The simplest of all seem to be political messages in civ-like games. By simply tweaking the parameters of the simulation, one can support or attack any kind of political doctrine. Of course, the simulation must remain believable and fit to some extent the history, but I think the freedom of expression is there. It''s better if the simulation is based on innocent simple rules. So, in order to prove communism sucks it''s better to add a rule like (''work well if work increases personal wealth'') and let the simulation work out, rather than a generic rule like (communism : -85% efficiency).

Actually, if you''d put a story into the game, you can have your message dominate the story''s run, but in an indirect manner. For example, if you''ve ever read the book Animal Farm, you have a criticism about Communism. Another example is Franz Kafka''s In The Penal Colony, a criticism of christianity. These stories though do not exactly translate well into games, but if you''ve played Chrono Trigger, it paralles portions of the bible. Xenogears is a heavy criticism of catholicism. So, yes, you can have a message control the focus of the game... though, having it just affect some gameplay numbers, it may not be such a great idea, as players could chock it up to personal bias and set out to remedy the problem with a gameshark.

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

Hmm...interesting topic.

quote: So hanging a Mona-Lisa on the walls of a Duke Nukem level isn''t likely to get much attention.

I would say, have your message pointed out in some way. Not really have a npc tell you directly, but hint at it. It doesnt nessisarily have to have an impact on gameplay. If you have a strong story, the player will care about whats happeneing. But if you have "aliens are invading earth and you have to kill them with this shotgun," no one will be paying attention to the story anyway, so they will definately miss any message that there might have been.

quote:
So, in order to prove communism sucks it''s better to add a rule like (''work well if work increases personal wealth'') and let the simulation work out, rather than a generic rule like (communism : -85% efficiency).

First of all, it has to be balanced or it will just suck.
I think this would be treated just as a gameplay rule, and not really thought of as a message showing the problems with communism. But simply saying communism sucks wouldnt be treated as a deep, thought provoking message anyway.

I dont nessisarily think that having it effect gameplay would be nessisary or a good idea. For one thing, they tend to be personal opinion many times, so would the player just be forced to go along with your opinion (catholicism is bad for example). You can have a message without it being the central part of the story. In Saving Private Ryan, the story was about saving this guy whos brothers dies, but the director did many things to show that war is a awful thing. Saying war is awful wouldnt work AS a story. So for example, if your point is that catholicism is bad, than you could have metaphors in your story, or something to illustrate this, rather than just saying ''if(player == catholic){intellegence = low;}''.

BTW: I am in no way claiming catholics are evil morons, im just trying to make point.

Just my 2 cents...

PHRICTION

quote:
Original post by Inmate2993

Actually, if you''d put a story into the game, you can have your message dominate the story''s run, but in an indirect manner. For example, if you''ve ever read the book Animal Farm, you have a criticism about Communism. Another example is Franz Kafka''s In The Penal Colony, a criticism of christianity. These stories though do not exactly translate well into games, but if you''ve played Chrono Trigger, it paralles portions of the bible. Xenogears is a heavy criticism of catholicism. So, yes, you can have a message control the focus of the game... though, having it just affect some gameplay numbers, it may not be such a great idea, as players could chock it up to personal bias and set out to remedy the problem with a gameshark.

First, thank you for the Penal Colony tip. The idea of a Christianity theme never crossed my mind, though I red the novel a few times. Back to reading

You''re right, the story is probably the best place to put a message (in an indirect way, agreed again), but then there is the problem of tyeing gameplay and story. And there are only so many kinds of story one can attach to a shoot-em all gameplay (theory of conspiracy - Deus Ex, corporate ruthlessness - Half Life). Thief however did a great job with the story, and the excellent atmosphere gave the story all the support it needed.

quote:
Original post by PHRICTION
First of all, it has to be balanced or it will just suck.

Yes, definitely. Fortunately there are very little things around that just suck, so everything must have some redeeming quality, even communism. So I could design communism like cocaine. Gives you (the state, the big brother, whatever) a large power boost (maybe just enough to conquer the world), but the long term results are nothing short of catastrophic (to put it in Civ terms, long Anarchy after the fall of Communism).

quote:
I think this would be treated just as a gameplay rule, and not really thought of as a message showing the problems with communism. But simply saying communism sucks wouldn’t be treated as a deep, thought provoking message anyway.

Yes. In the ideal case, the gameplay rules are widely acceptable as true (''don''t work unless you gain something in return'' - which demands a players response of ''lock people away if they don''t work'' - which triggers a ''protest if your freedom is broken'' response of the simulated people - which demands a player response of ''lock away protestors'', etc. so that even a Communist sympathizer would end up with a totalitarian regime).

quote:
I dont nessisarily think that having it effect gameplay would be nessisary or a good idea. For one thing, they tend to be personal opinion many times, so would the player just be forced to go along with your opinion (catholicism is bad for example).
….
So for example, if your point is that catholicism is bad, than you could have metaphors in your story, or something to illustrate this, rather than just saying ''if(player == catholic){intellegence = low;}''.

Again, it depends on the rules you chose. If for instance the (virtual) church decides to burn a couple of the player’s scientists just as they were about to make an important discovery, the large happiness bonus of building those cathedrals offer may not look so good anymore. Anyway, to prove that something is evil you mustn’t necessary punish the player. So for instance adding some (very rude – I wouldn’t do this ) option to bribe the pope into excommunicating one of your enemies would make the catholic church look pretty bad, without damaging the game balance.

quote:
BTW: I am in no way claiming catholics are evil morons, im just trying to make point.

Yes, that''s the point of this thread. It''s not the message we''re arguing about, but how can different messages be made part of a game.