quote: Original post by antistuff
You shouldnt go after people who post cracks to your software. Even though (Im pretty sure, DMCA) that its illegal, to go after these people is wrong. When they offer your copyrighted game for others to download, then try to get it taken down (and I wish you luck it should get taken down). But you didnt write a crack, you dont own the copyright on it, and just because some ridiculous law gives you the right to go after them doesnt mean you should. Do you think its wrong for people to be able to play DVDs on any OS they want? And do you think its wrong for blind people to be able to use Ebooks? Sadly enough, when you make somthing like a crack illegal, you make these other things illegal too.

How many people make copies of music for others on tape? Why not do the same for CDs? And why not do the same for CD-ROMS?
It all logically follows for these people, and telling them that half to all of the games that they own are illegal is like telling someone to stop speeding. It is a habit, and it isn''t going to stop soon.

It is perfectly legal to make a copy of a tape for your friends, its called fair use. I have no idea why but it is.

<SPAN CLASS=editedby>[edited by - antistuff on March 19, 2002 5:26:27 PM]</SPAN>

<SPAN CLASS=editedby>[edited by - antistuff on March 19, 2002 5:27:10 PM]</SPAN>

Like with anything else there are reasonable limits. Writting cracks to software is no big deal, its when people post the crack and the full program that it becomes a problem. One or two people stealing a program probably won''t matter too much, but when you post on the Internet for everyone your potentially causing serious finacial damage. As for the DVD issue, there''s a differance between writting software that allows someone to watch a DVD they own on an unsupported OS and writting software that allows people to make copies.

"just because some ridiculous law gives you the right to go after them doesnt mean you should."

Just because you can crack or pirate something doesn''t mean you should.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
People from the third world countries steal coz their monthly salary is around 200USD and they have to pay their rent, spend on food, clothes, education etc. Software costs are prohibitive on a person from the third world. Give them salary like that of the developed countries and they will not steal.

Talking from personal experience.

Go get a life guys!

Chances are pretty good that if their monthly salary is $200 their not going to be conserned with owning a computer. It''s not the software companies fault they have to live in poverty.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
My experience with Microsoft''s activation system for WinXP has actually been quite good. But setting up a free-call telephone number in heaps of countries is something only a reasonably large corporation can afford to do.

I believe the best answer is still to EDUCATE people and appeal to their sense of responsibility. It won''t happen overnight, but a widespread advertising campaign would surely make a difference. I refuse to shoplift because I think it''s WRONG, not because I''m afraid of being caught. Similarly, people have to be convinced that pirating software is WRONG.

As a kid I got heaps of apps without paying for them. If someone asked me to buy my copy of Office I simply couldn''t have afforded it. I''m trying to say that part of the problem is that gaming is an expensive hobby. It''s like Lego. Costly, and more-ish.

Having just graduated and started work, I''m going through a process of looking at all the apps I have and purchasing them. When I suggested to one of my vegetarian Chomsky-reading colleague that I intended to purchase Office XP, he rebuked me for sending money to Bill Gates. But there''s more people who have to live off that money.

Positive encouragement to buy is good too, like access to more information from a website when you buy, or trying to put cool things in the box - felt maps, collectable stickers, a glossy comic book.

You know what? I think that I agree with everything you said except the Educate paragraph. I think it''s impossible to re-educate everyone. I think people will tend to take the most easy way no matter what their morals are. That is exactly why Napster was so successfull. Rather than buy 100 CDs for 10 bux each which comes out to 1000 dollars, and then have to go back and forth to the store over and over, or carry 100 cds in your hands, it''s much easier to take the 10 mins and download each song. Also, I don''t see the problem with Napster. I would if there were no radio stations, but people listen to these songs on the radio for free anyway. (albeit with commercials but still free)

-=Lohrno

wrong, its illegal to make a atpe copy for your friends. its only legal to make a tape copy for yourself. the reason you get away with making tape copies for your friends is because its cheap and easy to do. also its quite difficult to track, like copied cds. many companies were alos not concerned with tapes after they got the rpyalities from blank tapes that are sold (ie a "pirate tax"), but taps are not digital so you can make an unlimited number of copies with the exact same quality of the original. as the generation copies are made, the copies of copies of copies will start to sound worse. though with realy good equiment you can keep this to a minium, it will still occer by the 5-10th generation of copies (a mere guess, it is probably higher). try this expeiremnt. take a tape, dub a copy. the dub that copy to another blank tape. then that dubbed copy of the dub copy onto another tape, and so on. you will notice the quality plummet.

If this doesn''t scare people out of the already low-paying career of game development, I don''t know what will...

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I''m trying to say that part of the problem is that gaming is an expensive hobby. It''s like Lego. Costly, and more-ish.

To expand on this, I really mean that for a large number of young PC gamers, the free-copying culture has burned its own bridges. These players are so used to having software, be it games or apps, for free that it''s almost inconceivable to them to have to start paying for it all. The only options are to stop playing all the games they love, or ask M&D for a LOT of money.

eg. Jonny, 14, plays CounterStrike, Age Of Empires and Medal Of Honour with his mates. He also uses Office for school and to write letters, Adobe Photoshop to edit photos, and Cakewalk Professional to write some music occasionally. Now someone says to him, "Buy all that software".

There are options, Jonny could replace Photoshop with Jasc Paint Shop Pro, get a less advanced version of Cakewalk and limit his Office to Word. But that''s still a whole heap of money for a kid who gets $7.50 pocket money a week.

The point is, he got into this situation because his friends all had access to pirated software. But now that he''s used to having this stuff, he''s more likely to reject any proposal to go back. Who''s going to voluntarily give up Word and start using Notepad?

Most of these arguments seem rather pointless.

Software can be copied easily. ISO CDs, cracks for timelimits, serials and keygens for "unique" activation codes, even Windows XP activation codes are ALL useless forms of software "protection". Crackers view these protections as challenges for fuelling their own knowledge, skills, or egos.

As long as programmers are able to reverse engineer .exe files, you will have crackers developing keygens, finding serials and deactivating protection schemes.

There are other, better ways of protecting software... one that my friend and coworker came up with was to encrypt an ID that associates with a customer''s personal information that is kept in our company database (so that the ID does not cause a conflict with invasion of privacy), and to embed this encryption inside a distributed EXE file. As long as that emcryption information and location remains private, it''s relatively impossible to determine an ID for the software. In addition, if we come across an EXE on the ''net that one of our clients have made available, we can easily take legal action against the individual for software piracy.

Another method is the client/server model, where the software may easily be pirated, however the service associated with an online account may not be. A subscriber pays a small fee for software, then pays a recurring fee over X amount of time (weeks, months, annually, etc) to support ongoing costs and maintenance. There might be a small loss incurred for piracy of software, but if you have business models like Everquest where a unique code is only distributed with the software box which is used to activate an account which is paid for on a recurring basis, it''s relatively impossible to successfully pirate such software.

There are better ways of evading software piracy; they just take a little careful consideration.



MatrixCubed
http://MatrixCubed.cjb.net

You know what else is kinda getting me here?
Everyone who is suggesting that you have to be hooked up to the
internet to play your games.

This model of verifying your game online before you play might be
acceptable for online play, but what about the other bajillion
games that don''t *gasp* need the internet to play?

Not everyone''s got net access. I''m sure there''s also a
significant number of people who do, but can''t use it at all
hours of the day.

Anyone else see a problem here?

-Hyatus
"da da da"

The lines of this issue are much more blurred than most people seem to realize. Compare software to mp3''s. I''ve never really been one for buying CD''s for the simple fact that what is on the radio is not worth the money. When mp3''s came out, it allowed me a to expand my musical taste. Most songs I''d download either got deleted or they are on my harddrive somewhere forgotten. Am I stealing because I listened to a song a couple of times? Would it be worth my $20 to go out and buy a whole CD that sucked just so I could listen a few times. Not likely.

On the other hand, I remember a few years back when I was coming across artists such as Eat Static, Autechre and many others I''d never''ve heard of before if it wasn''t for mp3s. Being the anal retentive bastard I am when it comes to sound quality, I bought the CD''s (mp3''s sound awful on good systems).

Now for a look at the small-timers... I produce music and post it online. The only way to get my name out is to give it away for free. Realistically, I don''t expect to make money off of it (no big deal since I really only do it for the enjoyment).

Entertainment software is very similar. The big games are usually bought because of popularity and cool, fun to read documentation. Who could live without the Diablo Strategy Guide? This is where the money is made. Sure, people will still pirate it, but if you have a biz plan then who cares. Most people I know will happily sink $50 into a game under the condition that they''ve played it before. This requires that they''ve either downloaded it (warez or demo) or played it on a friends computer. In this case, I don''t see the big problem. Sure, there are warez sites everywhere but I honestly could say that only 10% of the computer users I know actually pirate... as in "I''ve downloaded this game and have been playing it non-stop for the past 12 years" pirating. So, I pirated Q3A. I admit it. But it was just another shooter. I got bored with it after playing a few times. I don''t even have the copy anymore. This, I don''t see as illegal.

I myself am working on a game that I plan to give away for free. I have a 9-5 job and don''t need to make any more money. I am enjoying making this game and would like to share it. The concept of making a game for the sake of money is alien to me. I just hope to some day be able to impress a potential employer in the game industry with something that I''ve made. If a title of my own takes off and I can quit my 9 to 5, then so be it but I don''t plan on it.

There are some independant games out there, that although they are a bit fun, I don''t see making money. If you''re making a game, be realistic about your goals. Look at the game in the big picture. Perhaps ask for a lil'' cash in return for your time but if someone copies it, so what? It''ll get your game AND your name out there. It''ll feel good, trust me =) If your game really IS that good, then isn''t pirating like free advertising. As for the loss of money, there are ways around it... I''ll get to that in a bit. ;-)

I think Apps are taken a lil'' too seriously, IMHO. If I plan to make money off of software, then, of course, I should purchase it. If I''m using software for the purpose of learning how to use it, should it be bought? Should I pay $1000 for Photoshop jut because I''m learning. Again, not likely. Once I''ve learned it, however, the company I''m working may decide to purchase it. Perhaps if I decide to work for myself, then I will purchase it myself.

Okay, after all of this, I''m gonna get to my point now. Thanks for sticking with me. =)

My point is that piracy in many ways promotes software. I don''t really pirate much myself since most of the software that I did download, I eventually made money off of or used to the extent that warranted purchasing it. If company A creates a way to keep users from pirating and their competition, company B, is piratable, won''t I use company B software since I know how to use it?

If given away for free, money can still be made. Put tons of intricate tricks and methods in your game that are given to members only or create a strategy guide that gives this information. Players won''t be able to remember or write down ALL the info and will gladly pay a small fee to have an advantage over their opponents. The solution to piracy may not be to strengthen the laws but to weaken them. They really are useless anyway.

We''re programmers for Christ''s sake, some of the most logical people on the planet! We can create our own ways around piracy. =)

- Jay


Get Tranced!

An interesting idea I had, probably unrealistic but still interesting, is to charge $40 for all CDs and DVDs (blank or otherwise). That way users would have little reason to burn CDs. It''s true that they could save, say, the Quake3 CD contents to the hard drive and then write the data for Unreal Tournament to that CD, but this process would take a long time to do for 2 gigs or whatever, so it won''t be worth it. Anyway, this way they might as well just buy the game.

~CGameProgrammer( );