quote: Original post by Warden
So I''m reading a book today and I came across a quote that I thought I''d share. It half applies, half doesn''t, but hey, it''s fun.
"Complete amatures whose only relevant skill is programming undertake to design games with no further preparation than their own experience as game players. Those who overrate their own understanding undercut their own potential for learning."

Bonus points to anyone who can identify the book

Chris Crawford is the man about 30% of the time these days. And at the time of that quote, he was the man 99.9% of the time (all IMO of course): The Art of Computer Game Design...

Kralizec: Games bloated in content? You must have a different definition of content than I have... if anything games are having less content, less story, less of anything but fancy graphics and a physics engine which can calculate a spectacular amount of 400 shotgun pellets per milisecond.

The idea with the easy-to-do game creation kits was tried - and it failed. So basically we´ve been there, seen that it didn´t work an moved on. What´s happening now is not so different than the games kits from a few years back. Now you buy engines and development tools which make your life easier.



And I do understand the sarcasm, actually I expected worse. If you go around demanding "power to the people", calling game makers a "narrow minded" "clique" then you are bound to get strong reactions.


And as for long complicated games - some people like them. Just because you don´t doesn´t mean that we all must do simple games, with easy to understand rules.

Metal Head, you have the chance to make the game you want, but don´t complain to us if you are too lazy to learn some C++ or some 3d skills and start your own project. The knowledge is out there, so don´t sit on your butt complaining about how unfair the world is. And if you are happy with less fancy graphics, a slower engine you can always pick up a programming language which is easier to use, or use a prefab-dev kit.
Like Kralizec said, complex things tend to have complex manufaction processes. It´s the same with games, there more complexity you want the more time and money you need to invest. If you want to make a better Pacman, I´m sure you´ll be able to do that within a few weeks. But if you want to use all the means current technology has to offer, then you´d better be prepared to spend a little more time.

The games industry, like all others, is run by money and money alone. Making games costs a lot of money, publishing games costs a lot of money - so don´t be shocked when tried-and-proven ideas tend to get made more often. Nobody would go as far as to call Tomb Raider (1-6?) great innovative games, but the principle was solid and it sold. Period.

Sorry if you (anyone) don''t like the tone of the replies, but generally they follow the tone of the question. On this forum, we see so many "the industry is crap, why don''t they change it, I could do better" rants that we are numb to them. The industry isn''t that bad at all, and there are still lots of novel new twists and innovations in games.

As demonstrated by most of the other threads in this forum, discussions are better when you isolate a certain point or hypothesis and back it up in detail with examples. When the post comes across as a rant which tries to suggest what is "right" and what is "wrong" (I like long, complicated RPGs, thank you), people rightly get a bit irritated.

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My usual response is "If you can do better, then what the fuck are you waiting for?!"

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

quote: if anything games are having less content, less story, less of anything but fancy graphics and a physics engine which can calculate a spectacular amount of 400 shotgun pellets per milisecond.

That''s restricting yourself to one genre. And even in that genre, there has been a concerted attempt to add storylines in the past few years.

quote: The idea with the easy-to-do game creation kits was tried - and it failed. So basically we´ve been there, seen that it didn´t work an moved on. What´s happening now is not so different than the games kits from a few years back. Now you buy engines and development tools which make your life easier.

The funniest thing about these engines is that after you''ve put the work into adapting it for your project, you frequently realize you could have written one from scratch during the time it took to learn and apply the thing. The real selling point is the branding that''s associated with it.

..on graphics taking over content...

quote: Original post by varelse
That''s restricting yourself to one genre. And even in that genre, there has been a concerted attempt to add storylines in the past few years.

lets just hope it continues that way, I´ve seen quite a few projects do badly because a lot of time and money was spent on an engine, while instead some should have been left for content.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha
some things metal head said i dont know, but i have to say some comments on a few things.

Most of u don’t get it
Also why r corporate suits defending game company? That is not a good source.

It’s like the demons defending the devil
The employers defending their company lol

If games r so good then why r u in the industry? To make them worse? Are u not satisfied with what they make? Do u have a preference? Well so do I :o what a coincidence :o
u want to make a better game, something new, something never seen. something that u think will be better to play. hmmmm maybe they r in it for the money :o

well since u people that work in the industry think things r great can u hire me since u can afford it? When do we start? u have nothing to fear since one bad game can’t mess
u up right? :o if u have confidence in u then u should have confidence that u wont fall

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Good games and good sales don’t go hand in hand always it depends on marketing. If the game was so good then games like final fantasy wouldn’t need advertisement, same things goes for systems. A good salesman can sell ice to Eskimos lol And a bad salesman can’t sell cold water to a guy dieing of thirst in a desert.

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Also their can be a 2d or 3d game maker that can do whatever u need. Their r 2 reason why it failed.

1 because it wasn’t user friendly and developed in a linier way of thinking; meaning in a programmers state of mind for programmers and the games get deleloped almost the same linier way. Have u people ever heard of the game “I have no mouth and I must scream” made by a sci-fi writer that doesnt know programing? It was an original and good for its time they say. There is originality if u use a different way of thnking. can a programer be as abstract as an artist? lol u can''t program as sloppy as an artist can draw

2 It’s just that, no one wants to do it for many reason. It’s called more money and greed in wanting to monopolize. also I cant afford to get an expensive game engine that is limited and needs programmers and takes a long time to learn.


The engine has to be user friendly, fast, and flexible. If u think that the money is nothing then send me money please. So why do u care since u r rich business men to give me chump change so I can make something? well set a date and how u will give it to me. I think its best over mail now in thinking should u send it in cash or check. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Also everyone has an idea but not enough programmers, knowledge (in how to make a group), money, and time that can make their dreams come true.

As I said in another thread (in the Lounge), "Eloquence in English requires serious effort."

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

I hear your pain, however, I believe you are experiencing a complex market of choice. In the past, games were simply arcade style in nature. Then the industry began to classify games (FPS, RPG, massively multiplayer platform, adventure, simulators, hybrids.. etc..). Choice is everything, some people enjoy complex games. Take Everquest for example. No matter how long you play this game, it boils down to: 1. Killing a mob, 2. Grouping with others. 2. Killing a mob 3. Looting the corpse. 4. Wearing the items. 5. Adventuring to other lands. 6. Killing more MOBS. 6. Wearing even cooler stuff. You get the idea. And this concept works extremely well. Hundreds of websites devoted to keeping people current on Everquest, items, etc. keep the game alive. I enjoyed 12 months of EQ and I stopped playing when I became bored. I recognized that Sony will continue to expand this game and maybe someday I will return. You and I may never have the money or resources to out Sony games out of business.

I believe, everything comes back full circle. Whats hot today, will be NOT tommorrow.

The fact of the matter is simply this, "ITs all about the dollar". Your job is to try to bring the gaming experience back to the hobbyist and enjoy the craft. I enjoy making furniture in my garage, I can never compete with a major manufacturing company, but I dont care, I make furniture for me and my family. Make games for you and your friends. Don''t worry about big corperate and what they do. Desgin cool simple games, make them freeware and shareware. People will play them. Make games for the MAC or Linux; people will love you. People still play card games online. Write a kick-ass card game and post it to this site. Gambling sites are big bucks. Thousands of people play slot machine games. Visit www.pogo.com and look at how many people are online playing simple Java games. Its a big world, and lots to do. One day I drink orange soda, the next day I drink, coke; I still like orange, however, I have a choice.

I agree with you that game programming has become more complicated (if your trying to compete with corporate) but don''t forget the rich history that the gaming industry comes from. I remember playing text based games for hours. And I had fun.

Now that your mad, get even. Be different, think different, think outside the box. You might be the next Bill Gates...

Cheers!
IC

quote: Original post by Kylotan
Sorry if you (anyone) don''t like the tone of the replies, but generally they follow the tone of the question.

Thank you, fine sir. At least someone understood that I was trying to bitchslap a punk with an attitude. If he wanted to have a discussion, he would have started it that way. He didn''t, so I didn''t. Grrrr....



Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"