AP dude does have a name, and I'm getting mad that he doesn't use it. By hiding behind an AP id, he obviously does not consider his arguments to be constructive. I agree with Zealeous, altho going as far as genius may be pushing it

As for me, I am now totally confused There are so many things going on at once that I don't know which is what I'll just close my comments with this:

quote: Original post by techpage
"Game developers tend to cheat their way through making AI"

In this definition of "cheating", it is the AI programmer using a simple construct to create a seemingly intelligent opponent that makes the player think a more-advanced system is used.

That's all I came here to say, so there you go

_________________________________________________________________

Drew Sikora
A.K.A. Gaiiden

ICQ #: 70449988
AOLIM: DarkPylat

Blade Edge Software
Staff Member, GDNet
Public Relations, Game Institute

3-time Contributing author, Game Design Methods , Charles River Media (coming GDC 2002)
Online column - Design Corner at Pixelate

NJ IGDA Chapter - NJ developers unite!! [Chapter Home | Chapter Forum]

I tend to put very little stock into what someone says when they wear a mask while saying it.

IMO, such a person is not a "genius", but a coward.

Anyway, AP has disrupted this thread long enough. Can we have some moderation (and delete
some posts) here?

Eric

quote: Original post by ZealousElixir
AP, dude, get a name. You may be insulting, and off on a few points, but you''re a genius.

i don''t think he''s a genius, i think he''s just "appearing" to be one.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

quote: Original post by Gaiiden

In this definition of "cheating", it is the AI programmer using a simple construct to create a seemingly intelligent opponent that makes the player think a more-advanced system is used.

So... Gaiiden, sorry, but before you close your comment, according to your points, "cheating" AI makes use of simple constructs that happened to produce complex behaviour. Well, what about "honest" AI, does it have to use modern AI technology like ANN and GA?

I guess that would be the correct definition of "honest" in that context, altho it's never been referred to that way because in truth, games don't really use NNs and GAs. They are complex and difficult to implement and most development studios simply do not have the time to use them unless they are the main feature to the gameplay (such as the case with the Creatures series of games). Another way to look at it would be the threads in here where we've discussed "Game AI" and "Academic AI". In this case we could relate "cheating" to "Game AI" and "honest" to "Academic AI".

And in a further revelation, the other context of "cheating" - where the computer knows a lot about the player and world state, is actually synonymous to the context where the designer uses simple state machines. This is because the designer uses that information in conjunction with the simple machines to create a seemingly intelligent opponent. The same could be said for "honest". I hope that made sense Things only start to get interesting when the AI is a simple machine that doesn't rely on world state information but reasons on its own in that respect. What do we call that?

Dear all,

Just a short re-post of my message to Copet (by his invitation) at the IGDA forums
(http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=a185abdb46b52659ea279fc36507c416&threadid=800)


Dear copet,

Hmmm, maybe I can add a new perspective to this
discussion. Since title of the article emphasizes
on developers tending to cheat their way through
MAKING AI, it might be quite different from
an AI that is programmed to cheat.

In my humble
opinion, a cheat in MAKING AI is to create a
game that does not exhibit real AI but rather
a fixed scripted response to a player''s input.
Take for example, a simple game I created - I
did not program any real form of AI. Instead,
I made the enemies appear randomly - I suspect
that this is a cheat form of developing an AI
(because there simply isn''t any).

Most games
these days use state machines that trigger some
reaction based on user input and although they
are considered AI, they do not use much AI
techniques at all. Perhaps, you may call them
a form of cheating too.

On the contrary, games
that utilize AI techniques such as path
finding algorithms (A*, Djikstra, etc.) and
genetic algoritms really do utilize the concepts
of AI. Then perhaps, you may call this honest AI
development.

Anyway, that is just my opinion so I hope nobody
takes offense from my statements.

Best regards,
Sherman


quote:

Originally posted by copet
I''ve read an article that wrote, "Game developers tend to cheat
their way through making AI". Actually, what are "honest" AI
and "cheating" AI? What kind of cheating that can be done in
Game AI, perhaps in a strategy game like C&C?


Hope I contributed something useful ^_^. Unfortunately, I won''t be able to check this forum oftem so if
you want more input from me, please do drop a note at the IGDA forums (Malaysian Chapter) or
visit my website at http://www.Sherman3D.com

Thanks! ^_^

Best regards,
Sherman

quote: Original post by Geta
I tend to put very little stock into what someone says when they wear a mask while saying it.

IMO, such a person is not a "genius", but a coward.

This is off-topic, but I couldn''t disagree more. Rather than looking at the person, we have to look at what they say to weigh its truthfulness on a statement-by-statement basis. People change, and judging someone on their past or anonymity is one of the worst forms of prejudice.

Later,
ZE.

This is directed at Troll AP dude,

Dude, you''re an ignorant, lazy, pompous jackass as well as being totally wrong about everything you said, plus you suck.

But, please, don''t be offended. I don''t mean to insult

I think you get my point.

I doubt it. At least he knows how to write sarcastic insults.

Later,
ZE.

quote: Original post by Geta
I tend to put very little stock into what someone says when they wear a mask while saying it.

IMO, such a person is not a "genius", but a coward.

quote: Original post by ZealousElixir
This is off-topic, but I couldn't disagree more. Rather than looking at the person, we have to look at what they say to weigh its truthfulness on a statement-by-statement basis. People change, and judging someone on their past or anonymity is one of the worst forms of prejudice.

Later,
ZE.

You are right, this is off-topic. That being said, after years of reading usenet and
forums like this, it is obvious that anonymity gives license to rudeness and disrespect
for other people. Looking over the posts in this forum (not just this thread) for
the many years I have been reading it, it is obvious that the overwelming majority
of times that rudeness is exhibited or some insult is thrown, its poster is anonymous.

It is not being prejudicial to expect that a certain level of civility should accompany
any remarks worth reading. In AP's case, any salient points he may have made were
drowned out by the volume of his insults.

If a person wants to have credibility, regardless of what s/he has to say, then
hiding in the shadows is not helping to generate it.

Eric


Edited by - Geta on January 5, 2002 1:12:33 PM