3 minutes ago, ChaosEngine said:

Agreed, except for TLJ. At the very least, it broke away from the existing formula of redeeming the bad guy. Was it enough? Arguably no, but at least it wasn't as cynical as Solo or Rogue One.

Strange, I would describe TLJ as easily the most cynical of the Disney era movies. A film where the protagonists all either fail outright or actively worsen the Rebels' situation through their actions? That sees our long-missing hero die? TLJ offers up nothing in hopes or accomplishments.

1 hour ago, Promit said:

Strange, I would describe TLJ as easily the most cynical of the Disney era movies. A film where the protagonists all either fail outright or actively worsen the Rebels' situation through their actions? That sees our long-missing hero die? TLJ offers up nothing in hopes or accomplishments.

 

Within the structure of the story, agreed. TLJ is a story about failure and learning from your mistakes. Quite frankly, I found it refreshing to see someone actually screw up. So many plots these days involve the narrative equivalent of "Hah, I threw that shit before I walked in the room"

But in terms of marketing, it's nowhere near as cynical as Solo (or even Rogue One) with their constant shoehorning of fan service.

1 hour ago, ChaosEngine said:

But in terms of marketing, it's nowhere near as cynical as Solo (or even Rogue One) with their constant shoehorning of fan service.

Ohhh, you mean cynical in being produced as fan service. I gotcha.

8 hours ago, ChaosEngine said:

Exactly. I hate JJ Abrams "mystery box" bullshit. Killing Snoke and explaining that Rey's parents weren't Luke/Obi-wan/Chewie/whatever was the best part of TLJ. Vaders reveal to Luke was so fantastic because it comes out of nowhere. Lucas doesn't spend two movies setting up a mysterious backstory of Lukes father. Right up to that point, we're pretty sure we know who he was.... some jedi starfighter dude that Vader killed.

But that's the point. If I remember correctly, Lucas didn't plan this from the get go. It was a cool decision when developing the the second movie. And that's the "craftsmanship" part I was talking about: When you view it, you say: Ohhhhhh... Vader didn't actually "kill" Luke's father. He "killed" him metaphorically. He killed Obi-one's dreams of who he could be. It all fits together... It all makes sense. What a cool script hack! (The original was never built for this, and yet it works so well )

On the other hand you have Rey, where there are all kinds of "clues" about her parents. And then... Nothing.Ok, was it some Sith conspiarcy that Snoke set up to trick the general population? No, it's just the writing equivalent of a jump-scare: "Haha, made you look!" . That's just lazy writing.

And then look at Vice Admiral Holdo (Admiral "blue hair"). I really enjoyed this character in the beginning. Her plot line was surprising. It was supposed to aggravate you, and it did. She was supposed to ridicule 80s action heros. She was supposed to ridicule you (the viewer) for watching a formulated action film in 2017. She was supposed to make you feel small and insignificant, and make you question the very essence of the movies, and she did just that. I was like: Wow, this is refreshing, I can't wait to see what she does: Will she operate a network of spies on the enemy ship? Will she and Princess Leah invoke an Amazonian sisterhood with Captain Phasma? Will she turn out to be a Sith traitor? Maybe she has a secret weapon only she and Leah are aware of (that had to be hidden away) ? Maybe she is secretly another Jedi! The possibilities are endless. I'm on the edge of my seat, this is great!

And then once all is established, and she is given control of the plot, what does she do? The same cowboy heroics that every other 80's action hero does. She made the exact same decision Poe would have taken had she not imprisoned him. This was also lazy writing to me... You subvert expectations regarding to classic Star Wars character building, and then... Nothing.

And that's the difference between the writing in these movies and the writing in the old movies: Things happen without a reason. Characters say stuff without a reason. Even some character's personality can change without a reason. Techonology changes without a reason (Starships crashing into eachotther, space bombers, etc...) .

So what values does this have as a Trilogy (or a *novem*ology?). 

15 hours ago, ChaosEngine said:

Because Ren got the drop on him. Snoke's arrogance and belief he had subjugated Ren blinded him to the danger. This is literally spelt out, not even the in the subtext, but in the actual text of the movie. 

 

Let's disect the two 2 betrayal scenes, and you tell me which one is a more solid scene (from a writer's perspective) :

1. Villan's Weakness:
   1. Emperor: Exerting all of his power in a rapture throwing force lightning at Luke (so doesn't notice what's going on around him). And Vader previously offered Luke to rule the universe as father and son (no emperor).
   2. Snoke: Stoic. Doesn't get off his throne. Barely lifts a finger. Anticipates Rey's every move. "Force-manipulates" Rey's saber to hit her on the back of the head. Completely in control ... and... doesn't notice his disrespectful and treacherous sidekick !?!?  ( and it seemed like Snoke easily manipulated him throughout the movie)
      1. Snoke to Rey: "Have you seen something? A weakness in my apprentice? (giggles) Is that why you came? Young fool, It was I who breached your minds! I stoked Ren's conflicted soul ... " (Where is the part where Snoke is unaware of Kylo Ren's treachery?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOOD26I49VM
2. Assasin's Motivation: Both are continually mocked/abused/controlled by their masters, and don't turn on their masters beforehand. Give me a reason why they are betraying them just now:
   1. Vader: About to lose his only son as the emperor slowly tortures him in front of his eyes. 
   2. Ren: Snoke humilated him in front of a girl (who is not Ren's sister/daughter or even "your father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate" .) Is this the first time Snoke publicly manipulated/disrespected Ren? What's special now?

I don't know about you, but the character motivations in the latter seem completely random. They are just there to progress the plot: We don't know what to do with Snoke so let's get rid of him before the movie becomes boring and predictable.

Looks like the Solo under-performance is having some real fallout:

Quote

Exclusive: Plans for future 'A Star Wars Story' films—including the Obi-Wan movie—have been put on hold. http://collider.com/star-wars-spinoffs-on-hold/

IMO this is probably the correct outcome (and I didn't realize they were actually planning to make all these extra movies). All of them feel every bit as cynical and cash-grabby as Solo, created not so much to add anything material as to just drag more audience dollars into the theater on name recognition alone.

The only reason Solo flopped at the box office was because they didnt release a teaser when The Last Jedi was doing the rounds last Christmas, you'know, when the intended audience was present and taking notes.  When that trailer didnt drop I knew it was going to be a flop unless they moved it back to the following Christmas and was shocked when they kept the May release date.

To make matters worse they put this quiet release in between the two big heavy weights of the year - Infinity War( Oh, another Disney movie...did the representative for LucasFilm not get the memo? ) and Fallen Kingdom( sequel to the monster smash hit of summer 2015 ). Oh, and throw in another marvel movie into the mix, just for a laugh - Deadpool 2.

Anyway, I loved Solo and it deserves to do far better at the box office.  Ron Howard turned in the best directed SW movie to date and I do hope he gets to make that Willow sequel.  Rogue One and The Last Jedi made up for The Force Awakens being a cash-grab rehash of A New Hope and to have Solo much sooner was a real treat.  Watching it in 4DX was a true cinematic experience I will never forget as I felt like a fellow crew member of the Falcon sharing in both the adventure and danger( I should have worn my brown pants for the Maelstrum scene! ).  I went to see it a second time and cannot wait until its home video release sometime before Christmas.  Oh, Enfys Nest deserves a much bigger fan club than Boba Fett and her own spin off movie.  She is now the optimus prime of Star Wars!

I've got to say that I'm sick and tired of those who have declared a Jihad on The Last Jedi and its cast and crew.  I was disappointed by The Force Awakens( my worst fears were confirmed ) but I didn't start sending hate mail to LucasFilm nor putting down others who thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.  Why, I've not seen such rampant fanboy terrorism since the announcement of Metroid Federation Force...

...but seriously, if you didn't like The Last Jedi then thats cool, and I'd love to share a cold beer with you and talk of happer times in a galaxy far, far away.  Personally I thought it made a far greater effort to right the wrongs of The Force Awakens although it didnt really give the audience much new to go on apart from Snoke is able to influence the minds of other force users and persuade them into doing his bidding.  Thankfully, Luke was too awesome to fall for such a trick and just in time, came to his senses...well, I suppose Ben was like "WTF??? My uncle is really Anthony Perkins with a Lightsaber!" and then in terror turned to the dark side...hmmm. I guess thats still mission accomplished for ol' Snokey Pants.

But anyway, Solo is great and deserves a fair crack of the whip.