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The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

Started by
161 comments, last by benjamin1441 6 years ago
1 hour ago, RivieraKid said:

Being able to judge the important values for a given genre makes  good objective criticism.

Sorry, but that's just untrue. If you can objectively measure a thing, then you can rank it. 

If there was truly any kind of "objective criticism" there would be some objective method of determining the best movie/game/song/book, even within a specific genre. 

You can comment on the technical merits of a movie, but even then, the lighting/cinematography/sound design/editing are only "bad" based on a set of subjective criteria that appeal to you. 

Look at sport. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world over 100m. He holds that record and there is no arguing with that.

On the other hand, Shaun White is a great snowboarder. He's won 3 gold medals in the olympic halfpipe. But I don't think he's the best snowboarder in the world, because I'm more interested in people like Jeremy Jones or Xavier De La Rue who ride big mountains and do crazy insane trips. 

 

1 hour ago, RivieraKid said:

My wife says "terminator is a shit movie because its just about this dumb machine that tries to kill everyone". Its a crap argument because it doesn't consider the genre and aims of the movie. 

1

So what? If she's not interested in the genre or the aims of the movie, that's her prerogative. 

1 hour ago, RivieraKid said:

Going back to the Taken example - the pacing and choreography in 2 & 3 is significantly worse than in 1.

Again, in YOUR opinion, and again, that's a criterion that you think is important to those movies. If someone else likes Taken 2 or 3 better because they prefer the story or the music or the goddamn wardrobe.... they're not wrong. They might even prefer the pacing and choreography in 2 or 3 for their own reasons (maybe they thinks it's more readable or more immediate or whatever... dunno... I have very little interest in the Taken franchise).

 

 

if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight
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RivieraKid confuses "objective criticism" with "reasoned criticism". "Reasoned criticism" is when you give actual reasons on why you think X piece of art is good/bad, and it's obviously more valuable than "I loved it" or "I hated it". "Objective criticism" just doesn't exist. No, you can't say Taken 1 is "objectively" better than Taken 2 because it has objectively better choreography and pacing. By the same token, Taken 2 "objectively" portrays team-work(father-daughter fighting the bad guys) better than Taken 1(just dad) and I think how team work is portrayed in movies is more important than choreography. There.

What you fail to understand is that, even if I "objectively" manage to rank individual factors of the movie/book/whatever, the weight I assign to them is still subjective. By my standards, literally all Star Wars movies suck balls, and I can do a pretty good job arguing why. Sir Alec Guinnes agrees with me too.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/5974242/alec-guinness-thought-star-wars-was-fairytale-rubbish-and-harrison-fords-first-name-was-tennyson

Orson Welles thought Bergman sucked, and gave reasons why. Bergman thought Welles sucked, and gave reasons why. They both thought Godard sucked, and gave reasons why. Godard loved both of them, and gave reasons why. There's no objective in art.

http://flavorwire.com/200745/the-30-harshest-filmmaker-on-filmmaker-insults-in-history

On 6/12/2018 at 9:53 PM, Gnollrunner said:

Hence "that's pretty much my take" ...... What does kind of annoy me however is other people assigning reasons why I may like or dislike something, such as "You just don't like women protagonists". I mean now many complain people about Wonder woman?...... In any case,  Getting back to the original post, I don't see the problem with someone vocally complaining about something they don't like. That is their right. What's the problem with it?  If the game maker wants to ignore them, they can. Nobody is saying players or fans of a game or movie have any rights to control that game or movie.  All they can do is express their opinion about it. If someone dislikes Battlefield V because it's "historically inaccurate", I see nothing wrong with that. If enough people feel the same way and  profits suffer from it, at that point the game maker can asses whether they want to change something or do something different the next time around. 

I'm really not sure what conclusion we are trying to come to here.  Can we agree that people have a right to express their opinion about games or moves? Can we also agree that they don't control those games or moves? Seems to me, if we can agree on those ideas we are done.

We are here to discuss those opinions and whatever is attached to those opinions. I don't see anyone here literally saying "you just hate women that's why you don't like these changes". That's something you've attached/assumed. We are discussing the whole 'historical inaccuracy' controversy. And it's very clear that this isn't just about 'historical inaccuracy".

Yea you've got the right to express your opinion. We've also got the right to discuss those opinions, especially when the professed point of 'inaccuracy', or whatever does:

a): spark a backlash

b): doesn't really make much sense when much of the context of the series and changes are considered

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. If you're trying to imply that this is a pointless discussion, I'd only agree in the sense that many of us here have repeatedly rebuffed claims ad nauseam only to hear them again.

 

@Gian-Reto, on your points on James Bond etc., as others have pointed out, your opinion is pretty much just that, your opinion. It's pretty subjective to say that a new IP would definitely be better than the evolution of a current IP. And again, your opinion of the new James Bond, etc., is pretty much a moot point considering the overall success/lack of success of the IP in question. James Bond and God of War both have been very successful in their newest iterations. Clearly the markets, at least, at minimum do not care and at best absolutely loved the changes. Coming back to the discussion at hand of Battlefield V, the skins aren't going to have any impact on the bottom line for the game. It'll probably still be very successful, especially given the other gameplay changes that are coming (finally more destruction for environments!).

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

1 hour ago, deltaKshatriya said:

 

Yea you've got the right to express your opinion. We've also got the right to discuss those opinions

@Gian-Reto

Nobody said you didn't have a right to discuss whatever you like.  I just think nobody is going to fundamentally change anyone else's mind but go ahead and talk until the cows come home. 

7 minutes ago, Gnollrunner said:

Nobody said you didn't have a right to discuss whatever you like.  I just think nobody is going to fundamentally change anyone else's mind but go ahead and talk until the cows come home. 

Hey fair enough, you probably aren't wrong there.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

15 hours ago, deltaKshatriya said:

@Gian-Reto, on your points on James Bond etc., as others have pointed out, your opinion is pretty much just that, your opinion. It's pretty subjective to say that a new IP would definitely be better than the evolution of a current IP. And again, your opinion of the new James Bond, etc., is pretty much a moot point considering the overall success/lack of success of the IP in question. James Bond and God of War both have been very successful in their newest iterations. Clearly the markets, at least, at minimum do not care and at best absolutely loved the changes. Coming back to the discussion at hand of Battlefield V, the skins aren't going to have any impact on the bottom line for the game. It'll probably still be very successful, especially given the other gameplay changes that are coming (finally more destruction for environments!).

 

Sure, I am not trying to speak for everyone. Also, I do recognize the success of the newer Bond iteration.

 

What I MIGHT not agree on is the reason why they have been moderately to very successfull. Lets get this straight: the last few Bond movies before the Daniel Craig ones were godaweful. They were crap. They were the old Bond movies going down a very bad direction where there was no more return from.

So as said, a Reboot was needed. And THAT probably was the biggest reason why the Daniel Craig Bonds have been received so positively, maybe even by some fans who liked the old, pre-90's Bonds better.

Now, you can certainly say that was a "mission successfull". Sure, yeah, it did what the reboot set out to do, prevent Bond movies from slipping even more into Comic territory.

 

I still do think a return to the old formula before "need moar gadgets" became the mantras in the 90's would have been the better idea. But sure, that is my opinion, I am not denying that.

 

Just never, ever go from "It has been successfull" to "it has been successfull because of X" without pouring a whole mountain of salt on the whole thing (Probably should make sure I follow this rule myself :) )

 

Because else you could go with the "SJW's ruined star wars" and "it was a fan boycott" interpretation of why "Solo" failed so hard... when, as far as I understand it, the biggest contributing factors probably was "5 months after the last SW movie", "Rumours about a troubled production leaking", and the fact that movie apparently wasn't that well received even by movie critiques who often are very forgiving towards big hollywood productions.

And, of course, extensive re-shoots after swapping out the director mid production... which, according to some sources, almost doubled the production cost.

Probably everything contributed to the loss... Just like in case of the Bond movies, probably everything contributed to the success, probably the movies DID strike some modern tastes... but at the same time also didn't had to live up to the same standarts because of a decade of substandart Bond movies lowering expectations.

Trying to emphasize one over the other is then just personal opinion.

 

As to BF V... well, lets wait and see. Something the hardcore nerds and people to invested in this whole nerd culture infight often forget is that most buyers of a normie-series like BF (which is, like many of the console shooters, not that niche) probably don't watch youtube trailers, don't care about E3, or have any idea of the internet outrage going on at the moment.

So it is going to be interesting to see how the general gaming population reacts. I also don't think the sales are going to be impacted much by the female protagonist, or whatever it is (could be an NPC for all we know). Or by multiplayer skins. Or by cringy moral grandstanding on Twitter or cringy E3 trailers.

As long as the quality of the end product is good, and the game is fun even with whatever has been shoved in there, its going to sell. Especially when the target is the general non-niche audience that will not give a damn about historical accuray and just want to blow up stuff with cool graphics, probably skipping all the cutscenes anyway.

On 6/1/2018 at 11:50 PM, Bob Marl said:

You're right, but Battlefield ins't at it's second iteration. After 5+ battlefield games, I can expect the series to continue in the same direction.

A minority of extremists is not representative of the group.

 An adult can have an opinion without having to justify himself. This isn't an argumentation, this is just what I want. The waiter doesn't asks you why you eat a burger instead a salad. He serves the burger and leaves you alone.

A men only game doesn't mean I exclude anyone from playing it. I can play an adventure game with a female character like Tomb Raider without feeling rejected for not being able to change Lara's sex, and I can also like my war games with males. The argument that no female characters in war games excludes female players is utter bullshit. They were never excluded in the first place.

I'm not denying you the right to understand the origin, but I'm not the person to ask. I am not a psychologist. Try a psychology forum instead.

You shouldn't change anything about Lara Croft, the more cartoon her figure/breasts the better it is.

I guess that means I'm generally favourable to women characters in games.

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