It's madness to say that we have enough resources to adequately support ourselves? Why is it always called madness when one bucks against the status quo?

Wait, wait, wait... that is not at all what he said. You should read the complete paragraph, not the single line that I quoted. That one is truly nuts :)

What he said was (in more modern words):

Do not collect stuff and money because it will decay, moths will eat it, and thieves will steal it. Instead, store your stuff in my father's deposit box where it is safe. Read as: All your stuffs are belong to us (still the principle of every church nowadays).

Where your money is, that's where your heart is. Read as: That's why I want you to store your money in my father's deposit box, not in some jewish moneylender's pocket. We own your stuff, we own you.

Nobody can serve two masters, so if you work for money, you cannot serve my father. Read as: Gimme, gimme, gimme. You're my slave, don't you ever forget that. You serve me, alright? Uh, I mean... my father, and me.

Therefore, do not think about what you eat nor what you drink or about anything in general. Read as: Why plan for the winter? Who gives a fuck whether you have to eat? Come on, you'll probably find something. Or not, who cares as long as you're healthy. Oh wait... there's that. But look at the birds! They live, too. Have you ever heard a bird complain?

We can make a "Is Jesus crazy" thread, but I'll just say that I don't interpret those verses the way you do. The way I interpret that is: Prioritizing money and materialism in and of itself gets your nowhere, is fleeting, you can lose it at any time with no guarantee to recoup it. Living as a decent human makes you far more wealthy as a person and a community.

Nobody can serve two masters, so if you work for money, you cannot serve my father. Read as: Gimme, gimme, gimme. You're my slave, don't you ever forget that. You serve me, alright? Uh, I mean... my father, and me.

OMG Samoth :lol:

How on earth did you get to interpret that verse like that. You approached bible as- let's study this strange "super-book-of-slave-making"? Jesus always referd to God as "thou Father" in possibly any translation of it. He was saying "my father" like 90 percent of time in the Revelation to John.

The verse is beautiful to me, it is trying to explain that one does not need money/society-serving to provide himself with possibly anything they need, yet, if everyone wants money from you for anything, you become wanting/needing them too- vital consequence. "You cannot be a ship if everyone is a plane" sort of thing.

But money, as they are, are not the problem, the problem is if they become absolute providing element in a person, defying all else, such as if a person is dying of hunger in front of you you cannot give them supportings if they will not pay monetary/some compensation (a movie In Time(2011) is hiting on topic of monetary). People provide other people gladly if they can, even if the provided people do not criticaly need it, but currently we do not hold this as a society/civilization anymore in enough extent.

 

Prioritizing money and materialism in and of itself gets your nowhere, is fleeting, you can lose it at any time with no guarantee to recoup it. Living as a decent human makes you far more wealthy as a person and a community.

I would wholeheartedly agree, if it was not for two things:
a) Everything short of breathing (don't tell our government, or they will invent a breathing tax) in life requires money, it just doesn't work out without money (so "gets you nowhere" is factually wrong). In fact, you cannot even die for free...
b) The people who talk most violently against wealth (and against work!) are usually the ones who are the least "wealthy in personal values" or "valueable to society". They are usually the first to ask others to give them everything for free. No work, but want the same luxury as the others.

It is in particular b) which pisses me off so much. I'm OK with having to work and having to pay for everything. I can accept that this is just how things are. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's acceptable.

I am also OK if some Hippie decides to turn his back to society and live like, well... like a Hippie on Formentera. With his own goat, getting water from a well with a bucket, and growing hemp in his garden, why not. I couldn't be bothered less. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for these people, they're fucking cool. Hang on, his own goat... isn't that material possession? Never mind.

But what isn't cool is that I have to pay for people who don't work. Not because they are disabled or ill, or anything the like. They don't work just because they don't want to, and because in a socialist paradise there's always some stupid fucker who will do the work and pay them.
They contribute nothing to the community, except their worthless ideologies (which they do not follow themselves). If you ask me, they are not valuable people in any way.

There exist people in my country (probably in every country) who, despite working, and working harder than I do, are rather on the poor side. There exist however also people who don't work at all, live from wellfare, and they own a house. How is this possible? You tell me. For me, this is just perverse.
Oh, and of course they have the right to vote, and their vote counts just as much as mine. And sure enough, they want retirement pay later, too, and they will be the first to complain that theirs isn't enough.

There exist people in my country (probably in every country) who, despite working, and working harder than I do, are rather on the poor side. There exist however also people who don't work at all, live from wellfare, and they own a house. How is this possible? You tell me. For me, this is just perverse.

do wonder(and maybe you should do some introspection and wonder, too) why you choose to get mad about those (hypothetical) lazy bastards that live off welfare and have a house, and not about those that *inherit* substantial amount of wealth and can live a hugely luxurious life without working at all, but just collecting interests and/or rent

Because someone down their family line worked to secure that for their children.

I started from basically nothing and I just bought my second house (to rent out), I'm only 28. It's hard, but not impossible to build up assets that will enrich your children's lives

I also wonder why you choose to not get mad about, say, Foxconn(and Apple, and those are just examples), which makes ganormous profits off the back of workers working in workshops in terrible conditions and earn crap, not even being able to affort the things they're making, but get mad about said workers when they shout(if they ever do, instead of jumping off windows) "kill the capitalist pigs!"

Because that's a better opportunity for the workers than the alternative.

In fact, Chinese workers are getting too expensive for dirt cheap manufacturing, and companies are starting to outsource to Indonesia/India instead. That's how the free market works, competition to hire the better workers in China has driven wages higher, which means low quality workers in China have an average lower productivity.

I started from basically nothing and I just bought my second house (to rent out), I'm only 28. It's hard, but not impossible to build up assets that will enrich your children's lives

Good. Class mobility exists, more so in some places than others(I'm guessing you live in the US). Doesn't work for most. Can't work for most, by design. There's always a percentage of "fat cats" and "starving dogs", and the percentage stays roughly the same. I couldn't find a job in my own country(Greee) not even to pump gas. I gave up and moved to Prague in order to work as a programmer 2 years ago. I have my own indie game project which I'm working on, and you can see in my sig. I'm always actively looking for better jobs. Do I *look* like the kind of socialist that just "preaches" and doesn't work hard too, or lacks skills, like samoth believes most socialists are?

In fact, Chinese workers are getting too expensive for dirt cheap manufacturing, and companies are starting to outsource to Indonesia/India instead. That's how the free market works,

Yes, I know, and yet we choose not to get mad about that, but instead tell workers that this hell is "better than the alternative". Strange, isn't it? You work hard and you buy your 2nd house, while they work harder and can't buy the iphone they're making with their own hands. Awesome, right? You can justify *anything* that way. Child labour or even prostitution is "better" than the "alternative", which is the children not having money at all and dying, ain't it? Well, that settles it then! That's how the free market works, man!

I'm always actively looking for better jobs. Do I *look* like the kind of socialist that just "preaches" and doesn't work hard too, or lacks skills, like samoth believes most socialists are?

Looking where? Remote jobs/contracting work can pay six figures in USD. If you were searching for years, you should be able to find jobs that pay that well and at least try to tailor your resume to what they require.

Yes, I know, and yet we choose not to get mad about that, but instead tell workers that this hell is "better than the alternative". Strange, isn't it? You work hard and you buy your 2nd house, while they work harder and can't buy the iphone they're making with their own hands. Awesome, right? You can justify *anything* that way. Child labour or even prostitution is "better" than the "alternative", which is the children not having money at all and dying, ain't it? Well, that settles it then! That's how the free market works, man!

Well yeah, child labor/prostitution is a better alternative than dying in the streets. In most countries education is more valuable than child labor/child labor isn't required as there's a social security program for children, so we can ban the practice for moral reasons. If we lived in a country where unwanted children died in the streets with no government assistance, yes, we'd still practice child labor.,

Yes, I know, and yet we choose not to get mad about that, but instead tell workers that this hell is "better than the alternative". Strange, isn't it? You work hard and you buy your 2nd house, while they work harder and can't buy the iphone they're making with their own hands. Awesome, right? You can justify *anything* that way. Child labour or even prostitution is "better" than the "alternative", which is the children not having money at all and dying, ain't it? Well, that settles it then! That's how the free market works, man!

Well yeah, child labor/prostitution is a better alternative than dying in the streets. In most countries education is more valuable than child labor/child labor isn't required as there's a social security program for children, so we can ban the practice for moral reasons. If we lived in a country where unwanted children died in the streets with no government assistance, yes, we'd still practice child labor.,

And yet folks like samoth choose not to get mad about that horrible condition many people endure today, but about those that "abuse welfare" instead. That was my point. Seems like a strange priority of "bad things to get mad about".

Remote jobs/contracting work can pay six figures in USD.

Somehow I don't think *any* competent programmer on the planet can go freelance *and* make six figures *and* maintain a steady list of clients. Let alone any competent *worker* in general. Good for those that manage to do it, not all, or even most, can. I've done some contracts while I was unemployed in Greece, they ended. Currently as I said I'm working full-time in Prague, looking for better jobs(mainly in gamedev) inside the EU, and working on my indie game.

Prioritizing money and materialism in and of itself gets your nowhere, is fleeting, you can lose it at any time with no guarantee to recoup it. Living as a decent human makes you far more wealthy as a person and a community.

I would wholeheartedly agree, if it was not for two things:
a) Everything short of breathing (don't tell our government, or they will invent a breathing tax) in life requires money, it just doesn't work out without money (so "gets you nowhere" is factually wrong). In fact, you cannot even die for free...

Two words: Individual mandate.

b) The people who talk most violently against wealth (and against work!) are usually the ones who are the least "wealthy in personal values" or "valueable to society". They are usually the first to ask others to give them everything for free. No work, but want the same luxury as the others.

Even the most generous person, IMO, would be upset with this.

It is in particular b) which pisses me off so much. I'm OK with having to work and having to pay for everything. I can accept that this is just how things are. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's acceptable.

I am also OK if some Hippie decides to turn his back to society and live like, well... like a Hippie on Formentera. With his own goat, getting water from a well with a bucket, and growing hemp in his garden, why not. I couldn't be bothered less. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for these people, they're fucking cool. Hang on, his own goat... isn't that material possession? Never mind.

Is he worshipping his goat? Is his goat his everything? Are you really gonna make quote half of a Barry White song?

But what isn't cool is that I have to pay for people who don't work. Not because they are disabled or ill, or anything the like. They don't work just because they don't want to, and because in a socialist paradise there's always some stupid fucker who will do the work and pay them.
They contribute nothing to the community, except their worthless ideologies (which they do not follow themselves). If you ask me, they are not valuable people in any way.

I know people like this exist. Hell, there are days, I wish I could go a year without working. But given I've lived in an urban, suburban, and sparsely populated area, I can honestly say I haven't run into many like that. In fact, I'll be bold and say that those people a certain minority (like less than 30% if that).

There exist people in my country (probably in every country) who, despite working, and working harder than I do, are rather on the poor side. There exist however also people who don't work at all, live from wellfare, and they own a house. How is this possible? You tell me. For me, this is just perverse.

I'd like to know myself how's that possible.

Oh, and of course they have the right to vote, and their vote counts just as much as mine. And sure enough, they want retirement pay later, too, and they will be the first to complain that theirs isn't enough.

Regardless of how much they don't work they have the right to vote. But yes, being lazy and do nothing but consume resources, isn't cool.

However, if I'm gonna be upset about people on welfare who shouldn't be on welfare and that I'm shouldn't have my taxes going to, then I'll rail on corporate welfare for ever and ever. Long before, I'll be upset at a lazy bum or bums.