So one has to lose to be comparable? Nah, was just surfin through and felt like being a part of it, you know...if you check the lounge, theres some 100's of threads made that went unanswered or no replys, perhaps you could spruce all of there threads up as well and ask them why did they post there...surely it will aid their questions in a categorize section called... the lounge...but if it bothers you that much, you can ask the mods to shut it down. Wouldnt bother me...what I find interesting is, the other poster ended with a note of...

Na, but if you start comparing characters from different universes, following different "laws of physics" or "magic systems", using sometimes utility gear as an indicator of combat power (never seen link smash any enemy in link to the past with his super gloves, how do we know it is even usable in combat?), we get into an "everything goes zone" that makes silly statements like mine... well, less silly.

Fact still stands that the telletubbies never lost to an opponent in open combat (and I guess not many people on this forum would have been able to stand to watch the mindboggling stupid tubbies long enough to find an episode that proves me wrong (probably one of the tubbies got beaten by a squirrel in one of them :))).

If you want a less silly, and more to the point comparison that shows how pointless this whole thing is:

A Jedi vs Indiana Jones. Jedi uses normal Jedi gear, so only lightsaber as weapon. Fight start at a distance. Fight is on earth...

Indiana wins (given his trusty revolver does not fail him).

If we shorten the distance, and take away Indis revolver, it is more of a fight. Still quite open.

Reason:

Lightsaber doesn't work without Star Wars physics. That is not how light works in the real world. The Force doesn't work in this universe. The Star Wars technical explanations retconned into the universe tried to explain the weird physics in the movies by stating "its a different universe"... which makes the star wars laser blasters more awesome if used in this universe (the light-"bolts" are now travelling at the speed of light), but most other things non-working.

So all the Jedi is left with is his fists and physical abilities (if you discount using that useless lightsaber as a short club...). Indie has his revolver and a whip which work just fine on earth.

You can add to that the fact that Indie is the main hero of its movies, and thus cannot loose unless the script says so, and cannot die, while there are many Jedis that get thrown under the bus with every movie, the Jedi has lost by default anyway as long as he is not one of the main characters. Even then, Darth Vader got killed, Obiwan got killed, many other main characters die in Star Wars.

But this is now getting as far fetched as using the force or weird-physics driven tech on earth. Lets just say 6 bullets and a whip will beat some non-force-enhanced martial art tricks and a disfunctional lightsaber grip.

Now, that is totally silly. Given how Jedis are portrayed in THEIR universe, they should beat Indie everyday. But by transferring heros into the real world (what you did with your strength measurements), a lot of these story related powerlevels get messed up.

Given how Link is just an average guy in at least the Zelda Games I played, just with more guts than the average citizen, as well as some magical gimmicks, and Cloud is portrayed as some kind of enhanced supersoldier, who just gets overshadowed by even more ridicolously powerful beings running around in his universe, I'd say servants post is quite accurate with declaring cloud the winner.

Different universes follow different laws of physics. If a guy can lift 100 tonnes in one, and nobody bats an eye (because your average dude lifts 50 tonnes without problems), and a guy lifts 0.5 tonnes in a universe with a more realistic physics outfit, the guy lifting the 0.5 tonnes would clearly be stronger COMPARED TO THEIR UNIVERSES AVERAGE, because the average dude would struggle lifting 0.1 tonnes.

What happens when you throw them together? Which universes rules are now active? Do they mix? How? How do characters function under a different universes rules?

I think most people responding where not offended at all by your posting... just as astonished as me how long a post you made about such a subject. :)

Kinda just copy an pasted some of it, so I didnt write all of it.

Never knew average men could push around 10 ton blocks. A enhanced super soldier who has feats no greater than links. In fictional sense, even gods arent impressive, some can destroy whole universes, others cant destroy even a town. Just because soldier sounds more impressive than farm boy, doesnt negate all of their feats. Other than a hand full of battles canonically, cloud is almost feat less, his arsenal as well is about 1/100th of links, batman might be just a human, but he has beaten people with godly like powers. Other than clouds movements and endurance, I dont see him any where near as powerful as link.

The tricky thing about comparing JRPG characters (or rather, comparing any character to a JRPG character) is where your suspension of disbelief stops. Yeah, link can lift huge rocks and has a colossal arsenal of weapons, but characters in FF7 take on the destruction of the freaking solar system. You might not want to take that as an accurate description of the characters' powers (for obvious reasons), but the fact that you have to establish a threshold where you dismiss or downplay events means that they're fundamentally just not comparable.

Incidentally, Cloud kicks the crap out of Link in Super Smash Brothers.

So one has to lose to be comparable? Nah, was just surfin through and felt like being a part of it, you know...if you check the lounge, theres some 100's of threads made that went unanswered or no replys, perhaps you could spruce all of there threads up as well and ask them why did they post there...surely it will aid their questions in a categorize section called... the lounge...but if it bothers you that much, you can ask the mods to shut it down. Wouldnt bother me...what I find interesting is, the other poster ended with a note of...

Na, but if you start comparing characters from different universes, following different "laws of physics" or "magic systems", using sometimes utility gear as an indicator of combat power (never seen link smash any enemy in link to the past with his super gloves, how do we know it is even usable in combat?), we get into an "everything goes zone" that makes silly statements like mine... well, less silly.

Fact still stands that the telletubbies never lost to an opponent in open combat (and I guess not many people on this forum would have been able to stand to watch the mindboggling stupid tubbies long enough to find an episode that proves me wrong (probably one of the tubbies got beaten by a squirrel in one of them :))).

If you want a less silly, and more to the point comparison that shows how pointless this whole thing is:

A Jedi vs Indiana Jones. Jedi uses normal Jedi gear, so only lightsaber as weapon. Fight start at a distance. Fight is on earth...

Indiana wins (given his trusty revolver does not fail him).

If we shorten the distance, and take away Indis revolver, it is more of a fight. Still quite open.

Reason:

Lightsaber doesn't work without Star Wars physics. That is not how light works in the real world. The Force doesn't work in this universe. The Star Wars technical explanations retconned into the universe tried to explain the weird physics in the movies by stating "its a different universe"... which makes the star wars laser blasters more awesome if used in this universe (the light-"bolts" are now travelling at the speed of light), but most other things non-working.

So all the Jedi is left with is his fists and physical abilities (if you discount using that useless lightsaber as a short club...). Indie has his revolver and a whip which work just fine on earth.

You can add to that the fact that Indie is the main hero of its movies, and thus cannot loose unless the script says so, and cannot die, while there are many Jedis that get thrown under the bus with every movie, the Jedi has lost by default anyway as long as he is not one of the main characters. Even then, Darth Vader got killed, Obiwan got killed, many other main characters die in Star Wars.

But this is now getting as far fetched as using the force or weird-physics driven tech on earth. Lets just say 6 bullets and a whip will beat some non-force-enhanced martial art tricks and a disfunctional lightsaber grip.

Now, that is totally silly. Given how Jedis are portrayed in THEIR universe, they should beat Indie everyday. But by transferring heros into the real world (what you did with your strength measurements), a lot of these story related powerlevels get messed up.

Given how Link is just an average guy in at least the Zelda Games I played, just with more guts than the average citizen, as well as some magical gimmicks, and Cloud is portrayed as some kind of enhanced supersoldier, who just gets overshadowed by even more ridicolously powerful beings running around in his universe, I'd say servants post is quite accurate with declaring cloud the winner.

Different universes follow different laws of physics. If a guy can lift 100 tonnes in one, and nobody bats an eye (because your average dude lifts 50 tonnes without problems), and a guy lifts 0.5 tonnes in a universe with a more realistic physics outfit, the guy lifting the 0.5 tonnes would clearly be stronger COMPARED TO THEIR UNIVERSES AVERAGE, because the average dude would struggle lifting 0.1 tonnes.

What happens when you throw them together? Which universes rules are now active? Do they mix? How? How do characters function under a different universes rules?

I think most people responding where not offended at all by your posting... just as astonished as me how long a post you made about such a subject. :)

Kinda just copy an pasted some of it, so I didnt write all of it.

Never knew average men could push around 10 ton blocks. A enhanced super soldier who has feats no greater than links. In fictional sense, even gods arent impressive, some can destroy whole universes, others cant destroy even a town. Just because soldier sounds more impressive than farm boy, doesnt negate all of their feats. Other than a hand full of battles canonically, cloud is almost feat less, his arsenal as well is about 1/100th of links, batman might be just a human, but he has beaten people with godly like powers. Other than clouds movements and endurance, I dont see him any where near as powerful as link.

Okay, maybe I was writing to much, so you didn't got my point.

My point was:

If Hero A is godlike, but in his universe every citizen is godlike, so being godlike is the norm, while Hero B is just above average, but in his universe the average citizen is just average, Hero B is stronger relativ to the norm in his/her universe!

There is little point in trying to rip both out of their relative universes and put them into an arena without normalizing their powerlevels and equipment. If the average person in the Zelda universe pushes 10 tons easely (not saying it is like that, but given the toonish tone of the universe, that is not far off), pushing 10 tons is like pushing 50 kilos in reality. Its just average strength.

While Cloud splitting concrete blocks would translate to an impressive amount of strength in the real world (and an impressively tough sword) given that the average person in FF7 wasn't able to do that, and that concrete in the FF7 universe is just as hard as it is in real life.

Now, I am NOT saying Cloud > Link in the strength department here. I have not enough knowledge of the newer Zelda games (though you sampling links feats from multiple games while cloud has a single game to show his powers also is kinda Oranges to Apples), and really, the whole thing would fill WAY more space than you did up there if we wanted to it proper.

We would have to first set up the laws of physics and magic, relative strength of the Heros in the different universes compared to a comparable average person in the same universe, and rules on how to translate that to a common temporary universe before even starting to collect informations about the heros themselves.

All I am saying is:

1) Even with the proper process, this is going to be Apples to Oranges.

2) Without the proper process, you are comparing attributes not properly normalized. Its like comparing a candle in the night and a bright torch at daylight and calling the candle at night brighter.

Yes, a soldier in one story can be way less inpressive than a farmers son in another. Which kind of proves my point above. Disregarding this fact however, and looking at real life, a professional soldier (without being enhanced) will kick the crap out of a farmers son 99 times of 100.

There have been "farmers sons" in the past which did kick some professional soldiers ass. The swiss where quite feared in the early renaissance for doing just that while being not professional soldiers.

But: they were more than just farmers. They had extensive training in the use of the pike, ranged weapons and whatever weapon else they could afford (certainly not swords, if you disregard the cheap short swords they used). They were basically part time soldiers, combining the strength and endurance built up as farmers in the mountains with the guts of people having nothing to loose (switzerland was quite poor by then) and some weapon training... while their enemies were professional soldiers, but badly paid and trained most of the times. And not yet adapted to some of the tricks the swiss were employing (the pike for example).

But part-time soldiers doing farming on the side beating professional soldier sometimes is =/= farmers boy without military training beating elite soldier (if we translate enhanced to just being the best of the best) every time.

The tricky thing about comparing JRPG characters (or rather, comparing any character to a JRPG character) is where your suspension of disbelief stops. Yeah, link can lift huge rocks and has a colossal arsenal of weapons, but characters in FF7 take on the destruction of the freaking solar system. You might not want to take that as an accurate description of the characters' powers (for obvious reasons), but the fact that you have to establish a threshold where you dismiss or downplay events means that they're fundamentally just not comparable.

Incidentally, Cloud kicks the crap out of Link in Super Smash Brothers.

The extended version of Super Nova inflicts massive damage and status effects, but cannot actually kill a target

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Supernova_(ability)

So a supernova that wasnt intend to kill, and originally only 2000 damage, which is like 1/1000 the time weaker than the knights of the round attack. Link doesnt need a supernova, cloud is suspect to impaling and cut an butchered from a 2 inch sword

Hence cloud might shrug off a 2 inch sword, but link has much bigger swords.

And death battle? Not according to the polls, the VIP for the entire game is none other than link him self.

So one has to lose to be comparable? Nah, was just surfin through and felt like being a part of it, you know...if you check the lounge, theres some 100's of threads made that went unanswered or no replys, perhaps you could spruce all of there threads up as well and ask them why did they post there...surely it will aid their questions in a categorize section called... the lounge...but if it bothers you that much, you can ask the mods to shut it down. Wouldnt bother me...what I find interesting is, the other poster ended with a note of...

Na, but if you start comparing characters from different universes, following different "laws of physics" or "magic systems", using sometimes utility gear as an indicator of combat power (never seen link smash any enemy in link to the past with his super gloves, how do we know it is even usable in combat?), we get into an "everything goes zone" that makes silly statements like mine... well, less silly.

Fact still stands that the telletubbies never lost to an opponent in open combat (and I guess not many people on this forum would have been able to stand to watch the mindboggling stupid tubbies long enough to find an episode that proves me wrong (probably one of the tubbies got beaten by a squirrel in one of them :))).

If you want a less silly, and more to the point comparison that shows how pointless this whole thing is:

A Jedi vs Indiana Jones. Jedi uses normal Jedi gear, so only lightsaber as weapon. Fight start at a distance. Fight is on earth...

Indiana wins (given his trusty revolver does not fail him).

If we shorten the distance, and take away Indis revolver, it is more of a fight. Still quite open.

Reason:

Lightsaber doesn't work without Star Wars physics. That is not how light works in the real world. The Force doesn't work in this universe. The Star Wars technical explanations retconned into the universe tried to explain the weird physics in the movies by stating "its a different universe"... which makes the star wars laser blasters more awesome if used in this universe (the light-"bolts" are now travelling at the speed of light), but most other things non-working.

So all the Jedi is left with is his fists and physical abilities (if you discount using that useless lightsaber as a short club...). Indie has his revolver and a whip which work just fine on earth.

You can add to that the fact that Indie is the main hero of its movies, and thus cannot loose unless the script says so, and cannot die, while there are many Jedis that get thrown under the bus with every movie, the Jedi has lost by default anyway as long as he is not one of the main characters. Even then, Darth Vader got killed, Obiwan got killed, many other main characters die in Star Wars.

But this is now getting as far fetched as using the force or weird-physics driven tech on earth. Lets just say 6 bullets and a whip will beat some non-force-enhanced martial art tricks and a disfunctional lightsaber grip.

Now, that is totally silly. Given how Jedis are portrayed in THEIR universe, they should beat Indie everyday. But by transferring heros into the real world (what you did with your strength measurements), a lot of these story related powerlevels get messed up.

Given how Link is just an average guy in at least the Zelda Games I played, just with more guts than the average citizen, as well as some magical gimmicks, and Cloud is portrayed as some kind of enhanced supersoldier, who just gets overshadowed by even more ridicolously powerful beings running around in his universe, I'd say servants post is quite accurate with declaring cloud the winner.

Different universes follow different laws of physics. If a guy can lift 100 tonnes in one, and nobody bats an eye (because your average dude lifts 50 tonnes without problems), and a guy lifts 0.5 tonnes in a universe with a more realistic physics outfit, the guy lifting the 0.5 tonnes would clearly be stronger COMPARED TO THEIR UNIVERSES AVERAGE, because the average dude would struggle lifting 0.1 tonnes.

What happens when you throw them together? Which universes rules are now active? Do they mix? How? How do characters function under a different universes rules?

I think most people responding where not offended at all by your posting... just as astonished as me how long a post you made about such a subject. :)

Kinda just copy an pasted some of it, so I didnt write all of it.

Never knew average men could push around 10 ton blocks. A enhanced super soldier who has feats no greater than links. In fictional sense, even gods arent impressive, some can destroy whole universes, others cant destroy even a town. Just because soldier sounds more impressive than farm boy, doesnt negate all of their feats. Other than a hand full of battles canonically, cloud is almost feat less, his arsenal as well is about 1/100th of links, batman might be just a human, but he has beaten people with godly like powers. Other than clouds movements and endurance, I dont see him any where near as powerful as link.

Okay, maybe I was writing to much, so you didn't got my point.

My point was:

If Hero A is godlike, but in his universe every citizen is godlike, so being godlike is the norm, while Hero B is just above average, but in his universe the average citizen is just average, Hero B is stronger relativ to the norm in his/her universe!

There is little point in trying to rip both out of their relative universes and put them into an arena without normalizing their powerlevels and equipment. If the average person in the Zelda universe pushes 10 tons easely (not saying it is like that, but given the toonish tone of the universe, that is not far off), pushing 10 tons is like pushing 50 kilos in reality. Its just average strength.

While Cloud splitting concrete blocks would translate to an impressive amount of strength in the real world (and an impressively tough sword) given that the average person in FF7 wasn't able to do that, and that concrete in the FF7 universe is just as hard as it is in real life.

Now, I am NOT saying Cloud > Link in the strength department here. I have not enough knowledge of the newer Zelda games (though you sampling links feats from multiple games while cloud has a single game to show his powers also is kinda Oranges to Apples), and really, the whole thing would fill WAY more space than you did up there if we wanted to it proper.

We would have to first set up the laws of physics and magic, relative strength of the Heros in the different universes compared to a comparable average person in the same universe, and rules on how to translate that to a common temporary universe before even starting to collect informations about the heros themselves.

All I am saying is:

1) Even with the proper process, this is going to be Apples to Oranges.

2) Without the proper process, you are comparing attributes not properly normalized. Its like comparing a candle in the night and a bright torch at daylight and calling the candle at night brighter.

Yes, a soldier in one story can be way less inpressive than a farmers son in another. Which kind of proves my point above. Disregarding this fact however, and looking at real life, a professional soldier (without being enhanced) will kick the crap out of a farmers son 99 times of 100.

There have been "farmers sons" in the past which did kick some professional soldiers ass. The swiss where quite feared in the early renaissance for doing just that while being not professional soldiers.

But: they were more than just farmers. They had extensive training in the use of the pike, ranged weapons and whatever weapon else they could afford (certainly not swords, if you disregard the cheap short swords they used). They were basically part time soldiers, combining the strength and endurance built up as farmers in the mountains with the guts of people having nothing to loose (switzerland was quite poor by then) and some weapon training... while their enemies were professional soldiers, but badly paid and trained most of the times. And not yet adapted to some of the tricks the swiss were employing (the pike for example).

But part-time soldiers doing farming on the side beating professional soldier sometimes is =/= farmers boy without military training beating elite soldier (if we translate enhanced to just being the best of the best) every time.

Nah, its ten tons, not ten kilos, (i get your point) but if they swapped universes cloud wouldnt have gotten through the first stage without his sword (pretty much 1 item). He'd be trying to figure out block, tackle and ropes to move the ten ton blocks, while if link was in the middle scene of zack who was killed only by a small platoon, they wouldn't have layed a single bullet on him with all his impenetrable enhancements. I also get it, cloud has a likability in a more realistic scene...looks cool by dodging bullets, enforces an aggressive stance ect. But I dont over hype their ideal quality's, I just compare their overall statistics , and statistically link just dominates cloud to another degree of ownage.

Links raw strength written could bend the buster sword into a balloon animal, then punch clouds head off. Nuff said.

If Link and Cloud swapped universes would they also swap number of games in which they featured? Link has been in way more games and each one provides new gear (if not new abilities) which, in total, are on par with Cloud getting the weapons, limit breaks, and other special characteristics from the other FF7 characters. If we limited Link's gear to what can be found in a comparable set of games to what Cloud's been in the comparisons might be different.

That aside, there's another consideration: nearly all of what the OP credits to Link in a Cloud vs. Link fight is due to stuff Link has, not things he knows how to do or anything or things innate to him or anything like that. It's not even stuff Link made, it's nearly all stuff that he found. It seems like a big assumption that Link will have all that stuff on him and will be able to fight effectively while carrying it. In Zelda games he has a neatly organized menu that pauses the game while he digs through it to find what he needs. Cloud's ATB battle system won't wait while he checks his inventory system. Not to mention that if Link's edge come from his possessions they could conceivably be taken from him and then they become Cloud's advantages.

For an example, consider: Cloud uses Mug and successfully steals Link's Magic Cape (from LttP). The fight is now essentially over: Link can never hit Cloud while Cloud is wearing the cape, and Cloud can have a lot of Magic Points to spend while using the cape (boosts to MP capacity from materia), can "stockpile" more MP (up to 99 ether per stack, plus other MP-replenishing items, to Link's maximum 4 jars of blue(?) potion), and Cloud can siphon MP from Link at a net gain (Drain spell). That doesn't even get into Cloud's own advantages, like chaining Last Act and Phoenix materia to become all but immortal.

So, in conclusion, anyone could win, especially when we make convenient assumptions. But I think that examining who the competitors are and what they can do, rather than things they might have, is the right way to approach the question in an equipment-agnostic way. If you insist on including the equipment then there should be a definite method for deciding what each competitor gets to bring to the fight.

If Link and Cloud swapped universes would they also swap number of games in which they featured? Link has been in way more games and each one provides new gear (if not new abilities) which, in total, are on par with Cloud getting the weapons, limit breaks, and other special characteristics from the other FF7 characters. If we limited Link's gear to what can be found in a comparable set of games to what Cloud's been in the comparisons might be different.

That aside, there's another consideration: nearly all of what the OP credits to Link in a Cloud vs. Link fight is due to stuff Link has, not things he knows how to do or anything or things innate to him or anything like that. It's not even stuff Link made, it's nearly all stuff that he found. It seems like a big assumption that Link will have all that stuff on him and will be able to fight effectively while carrying it. In Zelda games he has a neatly organized menu that pauses the game while he digs through it to find what he needs. Cloud's ATB battle system won't wait while he checks his inventory system. Not to mention that if Link's edge come from his possessions they could conceivably be taken from him and then they become Cloud's advantages.

For an example, consider: Cloud uses Mug and successfully steals Link's Magic Cape (from LttP). The fight is now essentially over: Link can never hit Cloud while Cloud is wearing the cape, and Cloud can have a lot of Magic Points to spend while using the cape (boosts to MP capacity from materia), can "stockpile" more MP (up to 99 ether per stack, plus other MP-replenishing items, to Link's maximum 4 jars of blue(?) potion), and Cloud can siphon MP from Link at a net gain (Drain spell). That doesn't even get into Cloud's own advantages, like chaining Last Act and Phoenix materia to become all but immortal.

So, in conclusion, anyone could win, especially when we make convenient assumptions. But I think that examining who the competitors are and what they can do, rather than things they might have, is the right way to approach the question in an equipment-agnostic way. If you insist on including the equipment then there should be a definite method for deciding what each competitor gets to bring to the fight.

I think a chosen timeline would be fair, say one game (zelda ocarina of time) vs one game (FF7). But that would dilute it a bit, because game wise cloud does not run pass 5 mph nor jumps 5+ feet, if we take advent children movie scene then thats out side mechanics as well, which what death battle looked like they did, they didnt take a composite link from all games, they just mentioned them, in reality they only gave each 9 items/skills each two themes. For cloud, the final fantasy 7 game and the movie, while link had ocarina of time and links awakening, thats why it seemed fair, if they would have gave cloud more stuff, they would have to give link more as well.

In that case of links stuff founded, almost every rpg character is that way, unless like superman and has all his powers derived from within, then almost no character has a embodied skill. They always find enhancements along the way, if the lvling up system was true in ff7 other than game mechanics and AC was canon, then cloud should have been well above lvl 99 in the movie. Mug doesn't fit out side of turn base, because where would cloud then hold each item he steals, his pockets? Link after all has 100's, and link is accustomed to his gear to fit his puzzle solving character, dont think cloud would know how to use it with his characters main personified intelligence, at best hes a mechanic an hack an slash em guy, not a diverse skill's men. You are also presuming cloud would have precognition of all of links items (like all villains know superman is weak to kryptonite, when only about 3 know), unless cloud can study him through the entire fight and find out in game play time what each item does (before even being killed by it) then I think thats a far fetch'd idea. Link with no items is still a power house in the strength department, and cloud doesnt have anything to show for hand to hand, you cant assume he can fight like zack as more than he can use powers as sephiroth, sephiroths scene with angeal and genesis is not all that impressive, every one who has the masamune in other franchises do exactly that, even frog from chrono trigger does similar things like cutting a mountain in half, cloud doesnt have the masamune.

This fight would be a game like chess and built on rules, a pawn cannot move like a queen, a bishop cannot move foward, if a pawn has an obstacle in front of it, it cannot just jump over it and eat it, it can only attack diagonally, hence cloud cannot just by-pass certain elements of links skill and prowess, cloud cannot kill link using most magic because link has an immunity to almost every elemental attack, cloud has only temporary protecting things tied in with magic, all of them rely on his magic meter alone, most of links do not rely on magic, if cloud wanted to become faster with haste, it is temporary in two ways, one being he needs magic, and two it only last a short amount of time, links enchantments does not have this problem, if link wanted to be faster, his bunny hood is an unlimited supply as long as hes wearing it. This goes the same with clouds entire arsenal, everything he uses has a limit of use or a time limited to its use. All links enhancements, like strength (gloves), speed (bunny hood), movement (roc feather and boots), extra protection (shield, rings and clothing's) multiple add in skills (transformation masks) all dont need to be fueled by magic. Hence in the long run or a rapid amount of use in a short period, cloud will be left with only his sword, while link will still have access to all his enchantments. I mean its a tough fight in terms how it'll look visually, but on paper the powers link has dwarfs the power cloud has.

Its like superman, he isnt just one of the best superheros of all time for having one base skill/power, he has a combination of them, hes diverse, as link is. It could go either way depending on the creator/writter like superman against luthor or batman, even power houses lose to average humans, but if we go full power set in and base it upon their all around capabilitys, then link wins in my opinion a still 9/10 times based on everything in play. All in all death battle should do a composite canon round 2 to end the debate much like their goku vs superman 2, which was a even further stomp once you understood their entire history.

Ocarina of time vs FF7 cloud = Link 7/10

Both composite = Link 9/10

Both's entire franchise plus spin offs and non-canonical history = link 10/10

Links items that doesn't consume magic:

- Heart ring (auto regen)

- Bunny hood and boots (increases speed and agility)

- Blue ring (damage taken halves)

- Armor ring (decreases damage)

- Red ring (sword damage doubles)

- Experts ring (unlimited bomb-like punches)

- Holy rings (nullify all elemental attacks)

- Mirror shield (reflects magic/light/energy)

Link can be self restoring and immune/reflect magic, at the same time be strength, durability and speed enhanced through out this entire fight without spending one drop of magic.

Clouds material that consumes magic:

- wall (lessens magic and physical damage)

- reflect (reflects attack spells back)

- fire/ice/earth/lightning (elemental)

- Full cure (restore back to full health)

- Shield (heavy amount of magic use ups his defense)

- haste/slow/stop

- summons over 10 of them

I think people are not tallying in how much times cloud can actually use all of his magic material, in the game you can junction alot of magic because 3 people are using there own magic meter in one fight, if it was just one person not nearly as much spells can be casted, so cloud probably has only enough magic to use each once. Each is only temporary and lasts only a few moments. So this fight has to be quick for cloud other wise link will wear cloud down and once his magic is gone and the fight gets physical then link will be pretty much super enhanced while cloud reverted back to base, at base cloud is no weakling, but link will be just too superior.

Links enhancements = Limitless

Clouds magic materia = limited

A composite is still quite a bit to over powered for link, a single link with all his ring enhancements is already nearly impervious and suped up,link also has the four swords which splits him into four different links:

Thats 4 links, 8 hands, 40 fingers.


Power Ring L-1 Sword damage +1, Damage taken +13
Power Ring L-2 Sword damage +2, Damage taken +24
Power Ring L-3Sword damage +3, Damage taken +35
Armor Ring L-1Sword damage -1, Damage taken -16
Armor Ring L-2Sword damage -2, Damage taken -27
Armor Ring L-3Sword damage -3, Damage taken -38
Red RingSword Damage x29
Blue RingDamage taken 1/210
Green RingSword damage +1, Damage taken -111
Cursed Ring1/2 Sword Damage, Damage taken x212
Expert's RingPunch when not equipped13
Blast RingBomb damage +214
Rang Ring L-1Boomerang damage +115
GBA Time RingLife Advanced!16
Maple's RingMaple meetings ?17
Steadfast RingGet knocked back less18
Pegasus RingLengthen Pegasus Seed effect19
Toss RingThrowing distance +120
Heart Ring L-1Slowly recover lost Hearts21
Heart Ring L-2Recover lost Hearts22
Swimmer's RingSwimming Speed +123
Charge RingSpin Attack charges quickly24
Light Ring L-1Sword beams at -2 Hearts25
Light Ring L-2Sword beams at -3 Hearts26
Bomber's RingSet two Bombs at once27
Green Luck Ring1/2 damage from traps28
Blue Luck Ring1/2 damage from beams29
Gold Luck Ring1/2 damage from falls30
Red Luck Ring1/2 damage from spiked floors31
Green Holy RingNo damage from electricity32
Blue Holy RingNo damage from Zora's fire33
Red Holy RingNo damage from small rocks34
Snowshoe RingNo sliding on ice35
Roc's RingCracked floors don't crumble36
Quicksand RingNo sinking in quicksand37
Red Joy RingBeasts drop double Rupees38
Blue Joy RingBeasts drop double Hearts3
9Gold Joy RingFind double items40
Green Joy RingFind double Ore Chunks41
Discovery RingSense soft earth nearby42
Rang Ring L-2Boomerang damage +243
Octo RingBecome an Octorok44
Moblin RingBecome a Moblin45
Like Like RingBecome a Like Like46
Subrosian RingBecome a Subrosian47
First Gen RingBecome something?48
Spin RingDouble Spin Attack49
Bombproof RingNo damage from your own Bombs50
Energy RingBeam replaces Spin Attack51
Dbl. Edged RingSword damage ^ but you get hurt52
GBA Nature RingLife Advanced!53
Slayer's Ring1000 beasts slain5
4Rupee Ring10,000 Rupees collected55
Victory RingThe Evil King Ganon defeated56
Sign Ring100 signs broken57
100th Ring100 rings appraised58
Whisp RingNo effect from jinxes59
Gasha RingGrow great Gasha Trees60
Peace RingNo explosion if holding Bomb61
Zora RingDive without breathing62
Fist RingPunch when not equipped63
Whimsical RingSword damage -1, Sometimes deadly64
Protection RingDamage taken is always one Heart

Thats four over powered links with 10 rings per hand that could rival the lantern

One link is too much for cloud, 4 links wearing ten rings each while having access to multiple masks is over kill, one can have on the goron mask, the giants mask, the fierce deity mask, ect, then its 4 even more over powered links against cloud.

Nah, its ten tons, not ten kilos, (i get your point) but if they swapped universes cloud wouldnt have gotten through the first stage without his sword (pretty much 1 item). He'd be trying to figure out block, tackle and ropes to move the ten ton blocks, while if link was in the middle scene of zack who was killed only by a small platoon, they wouldn't have layed a single bullet on him with all his impenetrable enhancements. I also get it, cloud has a likability in a more realistic scene...looks cool by dodging bullets, enforces an aggressive stance ect. But I dont over hype their ideal quality's, I just compare their overall statistics , and statistically link just dominates cloud to another degree of ownage.

Links raw strength written could bend the buster sword into a balloon animal, then punch clouds head off. Nuff said.

Wait, isn't the whole Zack thing like way way WAY before the beginning of the game? At which point, at LEAST in a link to the past, Link has ZERO items? So no strength at all save barely enough to rip some flowers out of the ground, and pull a lever? No sword to hit an opponent with (and zero hand to hand abilities), no shield to defend from attacks? And only able to dodge bullets in its universe because they move REALLY slow?

So even if we give link the ability to dodge bullets at that time (because he is able to do so in his own universe, as all bullets and arrows are really slow), he has no other means to defend itself (so if he gets close, he will get hit), and no offensive options. 3 hearts. Okay, lets see if he does better than Zack at that stage in the story.

Just as Cloud would have trouble getting trough the action-adventure parts of zelda without the needed abilities, Link would have died quickly in the beginning stages of FF7 starting without ANY offensive weapon (given that AFAIK there are MANY battles at the beginning that cannot be skipped). Neither of both could survive in the universe of the other with the limitations of their universe/game, and their starting equipment.

Anyway, AFAIK Links raw strenght is like, pretty much average. Without the gloves of power he cannot lift even the smallest rock. And as said, I have yet to see a game in which link was able to use the gloves for anything offensive (haven't played all Zelda games though)... so that enhanced strenght is useless if Link doesn't use it for offensive purposes (or as it is something magical, is prevented from using it for offensive purposes?)

He has his master sword, which is plenty powerful maxed out. If that is more powerful than what cloud can with his sword IDK. It hits monsters for quite some damage. So does Cloud. Where is the powerindicator that would put the master sword at a higher level than clouds?

Wait, isn't the whole Zack thing like way way WAY before the beginning of the game? At which point, at LEAST in a link to the past, Link has ZERO items? So no strength at all save barely enough to rip some flowers out of the ground, and pull a lever? No sword to hit an opponent with (and zero hand to hand abilities), no shield to defend from attacks? And only able to dodge bullets in its universe because they move REALLY slow?

So even if we give link the ability to dodge bullets at that time (because he is able to do so in his own universe, as all bullets and arrows are really slow), he has no other means to defend itself (so if he gets close, he will get hit), and no offensive options. 3 hearts. Okay, lets see if he does better than Zack at that stage in the story.

Just as Cloud would have trouble getting trough the action-adventure parts of zelda without the needed abilities, Link would have died quickly in the beginning stages of FF7 starting without ANY offensive weapon (given that AFAIK there are MANY battles at the beginning that cannot be skipped). Neither of both could survive in the universe of the other with the limitations of their universe/game, and their starting equipment.

He still lifts these type of rocks his own size before no enhancers:

Even the worlds strongest men have trouble lifting rocks smaller than them:

Then strip away the mako from these soldiers and they'd be average. Link still throws massive sizes rocks over his head meters away like nothing and runs around with them, show zack or cloud doing that if you wanna low ball. And thats still young link, cloud, zack and the rest are only in the game as men.

Anyway, AFAIK Links raw strenght is like, pretty much average. Without the gloves of power he cannot lift even the smallest rock. And as said, I have yet to see a game in which link was able to use the gloves for anything offensive (haven't played all Zelda games though)... so that enhanced strenght is useless if Link doesn't use it for offensive purposes (or as it is something magical, is prevented from using it for offensive purposes?)

He has his master sword, which is plenty powerful maxed out. If that is more powerful than what cloud can with his sword IDK. It hits monsters for quite some damage. So does Cloud. Where is the powerindicator that would put the master sword at a higher level than clouds?

Nope, as a adult the stone link is pushing is in the forest temple, thats way before he gets the silver gauntlet and he cant use the goron bracelet as an adult so this is base link with ten tons. Never said its only gona be clouds sword, the mako obviously plays a role in enhancing his attributes, it can repel and reflect ganons beams back and is used specifically against him, If sephiroth transitioned, link can kill him, if ganon made his way to FF7, no one could stop him because they dont have the master sword.

Base = Link

Regular gear = Tie

Enhanced = Link

Full powered = link

Okay, maybe he can lift the stones without the gloves, I might have forgotten about that... but: FFS, this is a toony universe with toony graphics! Just because the stone is as big as link, doesn't mean it represents a rock as big as his full body height. Else link would be a midget, given his big head and tiny legs. Given that, I assume the rock he barely lifts without the gloves is actually just a larger stone, some 20 kilos or so at max in weight, maybe 50. Just what a normal person could lift.

Then. Are we talking about the both of them doing a battle or a weight lifting contest? Because being able to lift heavy stones is not such a hot skill to have in a real battle. Besides the fact that there might be no large heavy object to pick up and throw nearby, ever seen a weight lifter win against a martial artist in a fight?

Me neither. Because the weight lifter good at lifting up heavy objects, not beating the crap out of martial artists. While the other is still pretty competent taking on weight lifters instead of other martial artists.

Now, lets leave the topic of superhuman strength aside. Even IF I WOULD accept the fact that we go without any normalization, we forget about the toony nature of the Zelda universe, and even if we let Link use all his neat gadgets.... we are not talking about something super useful in combat BECAUSE Link has never shown he is actually able to use this superhuman strength in combat.

And I still strongly object to Link being anything other than at average human strength without gadgets, and your assessments of the usefulness of said gadgets.

So lets just agree to disagree in the strength department. And lets agree on this being of secondary importance in combat.

As to the master sword... what makes you believe you need a master sword to beat ganon? Because this is the lore in Zelda? Why shouldn't there be a being in FF7 that can beat ganon? Maybe there are powers in the FF7 universe that, normalized, are just as effective against a ganon normalized as the normalized master sword (yes, I use normalized a lot. Without normalizing things, we cannot compare it anyway). Maybe that being is Cloud (he is the main hero of the game after all... I am sure IF ganon would appear in FF7 and IF Cloud still would be the main hero, he would be one of the prime candidates to beat him (if not for a story event and secondary character and not Cloud actually getting rid of gannon).

Why exactly should the master sword be so overly powerful against cloud? Given that we don't know how the baddies in Zelda compare to the baddies in FF7 (which, at least visually, look way more impressive), we cannot really gauge the power level of one in comparison to the other.

The fully equipped link with all his gadgets was enough to finish off all the bosses in Zelda... but would they still be such hot stuff if thrown into the FF7 universe? Or would they be more like normal grunts in the starting zone? completly outclassed by the higher level FF7 enemies?

Oranges to Apples, really....