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USC Canceled Video Game Panel For Too Many Men

Started by April 30, 2016 06:42 PM
297 comments, last by Gian-Reto 8 years, 7 months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't paid too much attention to most of the SJW stuff (other than when my sister starts laughing maniacally in the background at extremely stupid SJW comments).

When people talk about class privilege, aren't they saying that people with more money have more options because of their wealth? (i.e. the presence of certain types of advantage)

But when people talk about white privilege, aren't they saying white people aren't burdened with unnecessary obstacles? (i.e. the lack of certain types of disadvantages)

What I mean is, all things being equal, a white person getting a job isn't getting it because of an advantage, but a black person not getting a job could be because of a disadvantage (racism).

If you are in a wheelchair, we view that as a disadvantage (because it's a lack of something the majority have by default). But we don't call walking people "legged privilege" - it's the normal absence of a disadvantage. We need to fight against discrimination and the disadvantages that exist for black people and women (like gender pay differences), but it seems like calling this racial handicap (for lack of a better phrase) "white privilege" just stirs up hatred against whites (and thus defensiveness and antagonism from whites). And women saying "a male dominated society" may be accurate, but simultaneously seems to stir up hatred against men.

Doesn't that push away the very people who are currently best positioned to help break these cycles?

It feels like people are saying, "You're a jerk. Help us make this nation of jerks like you be less jerks to non-jerks like me. Why are you annoyed at me for calling you a jerk? Not gonna help us, huh? That's precisely what jerks do, you jerk. Way to continue perpetuating the cycles of jerkhood, jerk."

It's even more confusing when other jerks - erh, I mean white males - join in on the verbally aggressive and simultaneously accusatory and condescending speech, while pretending to be remorseful and self-deprecating, but really are writing with immense malice and antagonism directed at everyone else.

It feels like people are saying, "You're a jerk. Help us make this nation of jerks like you be less jerks to non-jerks like me. Why are you annoyed at me for calling you a jerk? Not gonna help us, huh? That's precisely what jerks do, you jerk. Way to continue perpetuating the cycles of jerkhood, jerk."

It's even more confusing when other jerks - erh, I mean white males - join in on the verbally aggressive and simultaneously accusatory and condescending speech, while pretending to be remorseful and self-deprecating, but really are writing with immense malice and antagonism directed at everyone else.

I think the "official" response to this is "don't tone-police me" and "this isn't about your comfort".

Which, again, are valid concepts, don't get me wrong - but some people take it to the extreme. Surely if you want someone to join your cause, there must be something in it for them - at least be *somewhat* comfortable in the movement. It's naive to believe you'll get much support by throwing as much as shit as you can to a group, and those few that don't just get up and leave at some point, well...okay, they get to help you.

Otherwise, take the cynical(or realistic, IMO) approach and acknowledge that believing people will dismantle their own privilege because...deep down, they want to be "good people" is pretty naive; just build your own community, don't give a crap about "outsiders", don't try to enlist them or ask for their help; just fight them and accept they'll fight back because they'll defend their privileges as most selfish creatures do; in that case, go ahead and throw as much shit as your heart desires. :)

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You know, I see a lot of bitching and moaning about diversity advocacy in here. Let me ask something: how many people in this thread are not white males?

I suspect I'm going to offend some idiots with that question. It strikes me as hollow if not downright laughable for a bunch of guys to sit on the internet and complain about diversity initiatives for game development IN a game dev space that is catastrophically bereft of women and probably of non-white people as well. One sided doesn't even begin to cover it.

Valid question based off an assumption. I'm open about who I am, what gender I am, what race I am, and my affiliations, but there are a lot that are on here using anonymity to post (ie. they have cartoon avatars or the default blank avatar; don't know their gender nor race). So it's just assumption that women or non-white people aren't here. Fact is that gender nor race makes a bit of difference in programming.

Side point on diversity: Why is it that registered nurses are 89.4% women, but you don't see movements to force men into nursing? So why is it that computer programmers have 79% male and we see movements to force women into the industry? My percentages are pulled from the Bureau of Labor Statistics 2015 report on both fields. This reveals a double standard, when nursing's lack of men is questioned, we get "Men have other interests." and we seldom see outrage over it, but when the same answer is given for why more women aren't computer programmers, people get irate.

As I've stated in a Twitlonger post last year, [editted to be more polite for this forum than what I actually stated]:

You want to attract more women to tech fields? Then here is an ingenious idea, focus on the women who are already in the field and bust their butts everyday doing what they love. The reason women don't want to get into the fields, and we won't focus on lack of interest, instead we will focus on the fact that the media, instead of praising women that are in the industry and showing women that could mentor and motivate ladies growing up to be interested in the field, the mainstream media and activist groups want to focus and run articles proclaiming the industry is sexist. The media and these activists are to blame for the industry being so bad. What woman, in her right mind, would read articles claiming an industry is sexist and women are treated like crap, and go "Well, sign me up!"

I didn't touch on the fact that school counselors are guilty of talking girls out of programming or tech fields and into other fields. That is where diversity needs to start, stop detouring interested high school seniors.

Where are the articles praising the accomplishments of Amy Hennig, Jade Raymond, Charlotte Fisher, Carol Shaw, Roberta Williams, Dona Bailey, Sherry McKenna, Kim Swift, etc. and promoting them as role models for women to look up to and draw them into the game industry?

>> I didn't touch on the fact that school counselors are guilty of talking girls out of programming or tech fields and into other fields.

Does this actually happen in the US? Do you have an article or paper on this? I find the thought that a person in education might use their position in such a way extremely disturbing and to my knowledge such things don't happen here in the UK and are immoral and somewhat illegal.

Hm, i'm surprised, but perhaps shouldn't be, that there's a thread on this.

anyway, tracy did it because of her values. she wants to represent the right community, and the event probably came out looking wrong hence her cancel.

it's too bad we can't see jenova speak >.<!

Denying outright that privilege exists is tantamount to denying climate change -- Its easy enough to do from an air-conditioned apartment, meanwhile those along the coast are left to drowning. We can argue about symptoms vs. causes, root causes, who to blame, and what precisely to do about it until we're blue in the face but that doesn't achieve anything and is energy wasted to inaction.


Not quite. While there may be deep rhetorical force in attempting to compare 'privilege' to climate disruption (with denial of such rhetorically on par with denying vaccines) it is a mistake to do so. Climate disruption is backed by measurable data. Human lives are far more wooly and unpredictable and when we speak of demographics we must fit people into models, which are subject to change based on dominant social science ideologies. Privilege in all its trendy force is a framework, an interpretation, rather than a hard, indisputable fact. It is a lens for viewing the world, and only one of many. Its current incarnation divvies the world up on the basis of an oppressor/oppressed dynamic, with a myopic view of the West used to show that men oppress women, whites oppress non-whites, non-trans people oppress trans people etc. Most insidiously, it is used to lump people into groups and ascribe a reality to them that may have nothing to do with their lives.



We all have a set of privileges we were born into -- men have privileges that women don't have, whites have privileges that blacks don't have, women have privileges that men don't have, blacks have privileges that whites don't have. Its not all or nothing, its shades and degrees along as many axes as you can name. But generally, if you're a white male who had access to a quality education and quality healthcare, the playing field is tipped greatly in your favor for no reason other than the circumstances of your birth -- and that you can identify distinct demographics that by-and-large aren't born into similarly smooth-sailing by virtue of their skin, or gender, or economic class -- well, being a white dude is a privilege to be damn sure.


The core problem with this idea is the gross scale assumptions we have to use (white == easier time) render any useful conclusions we might draw moot. Consider, what is your privilege if:
  • You are white but have significant depression
  • You are male but extremely risk averse
  • You are black and extremely charismatic
  • You are female and atypically aggressive
  • You are a work-aholic
  • You have an aptitude for math but significant social phobias
  • You were poor growing up but had a stable household which encouraged self development
  • You don't speak the language of the dominant culture and were discouraged from doing so
Privilege fails as a device for explaining reality. Historically, for instance, 'white privilege' cannot adequately explain discrimination faced by the Irish. Nor can it explain the economic disparity we observe between foreign-born Black immigrants to the US who outearn native-born Black Americans (by 10k on average according to one Pew study) we see today.
Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/chapter-1-statistical-portrait-of-the-u-s-black-immigrant-population/

When faced with raw reality 'privilege' is starting to look like a modern day cosmological constant. Far from being on "the right side of history" I suspect it will one day be considered an ideological embarrassment.


And having privilege doesn't make you a villain, and it doesn't mean you've never faced hardship or overcome a hand you were dealt. Having or lacking privilege is not pre-destiny, it just means the course of different parts of your life are swimming with or against currents you don't control.

So none of us should feel bad for having the privileges we do -- the place we want to get to is a place where greater equality is achieved extending privileges to those who go without today, not by taking them from those who enjoy them today. Lets all become richer, not poorer -- basic dignities are not a commodity in a zero-sum game.

While that work is going on, the least we can all do is stop dismissing one another's trials, and try to understand them instead.


I like the sentiment of building us all up, but I strongly doubt the flawed concept of privilege will get us there. If, for instance, the idea can be used in a job interview to source other characteristics an atypical applicant might have then all the better. Just because someone's resume lacks all the correct key words doesn't mean they're automatically an unfit candidate. They may have other useful advantages or have compensated in other ways.

Privilege in practice, however, is not very operationally useful. What is the effect of 'checking one's privilege?' Does it get Raspberry Pis into the hands of poor kids? Does it cultivate a love of math in girls?

Clearly it does not, and even worse, beyond obnoxious social point scoring and demonization, the very idea normalizes and excuses bigotry. It justifies, for instance, a Blakely school teacher (Karen Kelly) discriminating against boys, forbidding them access to Legos because they're assumed to be advantaged by din of being male. It is fundamentally oppositional, encouraging us to sneer at some groups much the same way nationalists sneer at immigrants. That mentality decidedly moves us away from equality into something far darker.
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
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Side point on diversity: Why is it that registered nurses are 89.4% women, but you don't see movements to force men into nursing? So why is it that computer programmers have 79% male and we see movements to force women into the industry? My percentages are pulled from the Bureau of Labor Statistics 2015 report on both fields. This reveals a double standard, when nursing's lack of men is questioned, we get "Men have other interests." and we seldom see outrage over it, but when the same answer is given for why more women aren't computer programmers, people get irate.


This is a very good question. Canada appears to be the same. My wife is an RN here and can attest to the fact that there's no push whatsoever despite the fact that the field demands great skill and can pay very well (there was recently a controversy in our area of one nurse, ironically male, making over 100k because of overtime). Nursing candidates are overwhelmingly female as are experienced nurses, and management fields that require nursing are thus dominated by women.

Proponents of diversity need to move beyond looking like proponents of selective diversity if they want to fortify the ideological foundations of efforts to get us to a fairer world.

As I've stated in a Twitlonger post last year, [editted to be more polite for this forum than what I actually stated]:

You want to attract more women to tech fields? Then here is an ingenious idea, focus on the women who are already in the field and bust their butts everyday doing what they love. The reason women don't want to get into the fields, and we won't focus on lack of interest, instead we will focus on the fact that the media, instead of praising women that are in the industry and showing women that could mentor and motivate ladies growing up to be interested in the field, the mainstream media and activist groups want to focus and run articles proclaiming the industry is sexist. The media and these activists are to blame for the industry being so bad. What woman, in her right mind, would read articles claiming an industry is sexist and women are treated like crap, and go "Well, sign me up!"

I didn't touch on the fact that school counselors are guilty of talking girls out of programming or tech fields and into other fields. That is where diversity needs to start, stop detouring interested high school seniors.

Where are the articles praising the accomplishments of Amy Hennig, Jade Raymond, Charlotte Fisher, Carol Shaw, Roberta Williams, Dona Bailey, Sherry McKenna, Kim Swift, etc. and promoting them as role models for women to look up to and draw them into the game industry?


Well said. I have asked something similar about people like Gilles Matouba, Joseph Saulter and Derek Smart not being shown as inspirations for black game industry professionals. We need to show that paths exists, direct our resources into opening them for those who have never had them and move the conversation to concrete specifics rather than self-serving, guilt mediating concepts like privilege.
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

Otherwise, take the cynical(or realistic, IMO) approach and acknowledge that believing people will dismantle their own privilege because...deep down, they want to be "good people" is pretty naive; just build your own community, don't give a crap about "outsiders", don't try to enlist them or ask for their help; just fight them and accept they'll fight back because they'll defend their privileges as most selfish creatures do; in that case, go ahead and throw as much shit as your heart desires. :)


I think there can be a powerful role for altruism (mentorship, for example) but I fear that altruism based on guilt will not last. Ultimately we have to break down tribalism to give more people opportunities. I think you're right that anything that pushes people into "us and them" costs us dearly. It can make potential mentors gun-shy, inculcates a "stay in your lane" mentality which discourages the kind of cross pollination when creates great ideas (not to mention lifelong friendships) and in the very worst outcome creates a climate of fear that drives us apart.

I would love to see a philosophy predominate that is honest about addressing our problems but at the same time inspires us. Taking something away because not enough people have it is scarcity thinking. Hold the "Legends" panel, invite the speakers, and get them to address specific issues. How do you recruit? How can a successful mentorship program be established? How do you evaluate applicants with non-traditional backgrounds? How do you bring together people from diverse backgrounds and celebrate their differences while unifying them?

Google recently had some fascinating research on what creates effective teams. The idea of trust and safety was paramount, and it strikes me that viewing people as "the other" in such a way that their gain is our loss does not get us to that goal.
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

waah! someone said a thing I don't agree with! they have triggered me and should be made to go away!

Is all I see in your post :P Stop claiming to be oppressed.


Fuck me... I can't tell if you are trolling or not?!?

Show me.. go on; direct quote somewhere where I said something to that effect... I TRIED to debate points, I even pointed out the event wasn't fucking diverse enough... and for my troubles? "Privilage".

It's a bullshit phrase which does nothing to address points and everything to dismiss those making the point.

Edit: And yes... yes I'm annoyed because having had my first few posts, as far as I can tell, ignored, people are now having the fucking audacity to put words in my mouth to further ignore points I've made...

>> I didn't touch on the fact that school counselors are guilty of talking girls out of programming or tech fields and into other fields.

Does this actually happen in the US? Do you have an article or paper on this? I find the thought that a person in education might use their position in such a way extremely disturbing and to my knowledge such things don't happen here in the UK and are immoral and somewhat illegal.

Yes this does happen. I believe we had a few GD.net members that even mentioned that it happened to them personally or new a girl that was talked into another field and away from STEM.

Then you also have stories like this: https://www.usenix.org/blog/my-daughters-high-school-programming-teacher

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