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Future of economics, Step 1

Started by April 13, 2016 02:17 PM
108 comments, last by ChaosEngine 8 years, 3 months ago

This is exhausting.

Well at least people are no longer arguing with me about whether banks create money out of nothing. That's a positive sign.

Now it's the matter of debt and whether above 100% or below 100% is fair. I say under 100% with conditions can be made fair.

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I also am saying that your position does not seem internally consistent.
Upthread you said that you love fractional reserve banking, and that all people should.

You left out something: "I hate overdebt "

The entire quote was "I love fractional reserve banking. I hate overdebt (so should everyone else)."

Remember to be "internally consistent."

That is the mechanism by which loans can exceed the value of capital in the bank, which is the core of your complaint.

You just quoted me saying that I like that banks can do that - My complaint is about the percentage of debt the public accepts - Why are borrowers so willing to be debt gluttons?

In what way is it less real or valid than other money?

It becomes real money. Let them "make" money - but not overcharge everybody else who cannot "make" money.

The government sets those limits

Who started that rumor? I hear it repeated a lot.

Central Banks are independent (uncoerced and untaxed) and set the ratio themselves.

None of the system you clearly despise is a secret.

I don't despise the system. It has my admiration. It's the publics' complacency and defense of a bad deal for themselves that irks me.

Why are you so unwilling to consider other arguments than your own?

I have considered them. It's good to no longer have any doubts. Just wish I had become wiser a lot sooner.

You want "evidence"? Like a confession? From who!? Who'd publicly admit to something so scandalous? Or even deliberately draw attention to it? You think anyone with that kind of "power" would give up one iota of said power voluntarily? Profit like that is better than winning the lottery.

Ah yes, the classic conspiracy theory circular reference.
"Have you any evidence for this?"
"Of course not, the lack of evidence proves a cover up!"

I was talking about their motives'.
But what is done is done. I have no interest in "accusing" history of anything - it's unproductive. I want to bring people's attention to how to get a better deal. And this is only step 1.

The step 2 thread got locked.

Things get better in step 3. There I wanted to talk about a civic credit system that can run parallel to the economy, acting as a safety net.

You left out something: "I hate overdebt "

The entire quote was "I love fractional reserve banking. I hate overdebt (so should everyone else)."

Remember to be "internally consistent."

With no guidance from you on when it switches from acceptable debt to overdebt, I focused on your complaint that banks shouldn't be able to generate "extra" money and your emphasis on the volume of loan repayments (principal + interest) exceeding the money supply. You've said ">100% debt" a lot here, and that it's bad but poorly understood. I interpreted your position as it being acceptable for a given bank to loan out more than it holds in capital provided that banks in aggregate do not (so the debt:capital ratio is less than 1). When does it become "overdebt"? Is there a bright line where it tips for you? Is it a collective action issue, where what a given bank may be OK but is no good when many banks do it?

Resolving your dislike of ">100% debt" to your love of fractional reserve banking would clear up some inconsistency in your position. If the word "overdebt" is what does the work here then, as above, please let us know just what that means.

It becomes real money. Let them "make" money - but not overcharge everybody else who cannot "make" money.

What is the acceptable charge for making a loan to someone, and at what point is it overcharging? Would it matter to you if the amount of money created via fractional loan was greater than the interest charged for that loan? Do you feel that the practice of assessing interest is wrong altogether, including financing a purchase or paying it into a savings account?

The government sets those limits

Who started that rumor? I hear it repeated a lot.

Central Banks are independent (uncoerced and untaxed) and set the ratio themselves.

In the U.S. (I don't know about other countries) the central bank doesn't regulate all banks but only those that participate in the Federal Reserve system. Other banks are regulated directly by the FDIC, Office of the Comptroller, and other entities (depending on where the bank is and how it was formed). I was glib in saying that the government sets all applicable limits-- thank you for the correction. But I assume that your critique is not limited to only those banks that fall under the Federal Reserve's authority. Is that right? If so, what differences do you draw between the different regulators with regard to your position in this thread?

I don't despise the system. It has my admiration. It's the publics' complacency and defense of bad deal for themselves that irks me.

Um, OK. Would you be willing to reiterate exactly what the bad deal is? The deflation issue, from one of your earliest posts in-thread, seems to have fallen by the wayside as we now appear to agree that "extra" money from the bank is real money and expands the money supply. Presumably expansion of the money supply is acceptable through Treasury vehicles (I've brought these up a couple of times)-- are banks as agents in the money-expansion process uniquely unacceptable?

I have considered them. It's good to no longer have any doubts. Just wish I had become wiser a lot sooner.

I don't think anyone should ever close his or her mind to inquiry. A true position that a person understands thoroughly will withstand contrary arguments.

This has been a long thread. Would you be willing to lay out your arguments again in light of what we've gone over? I'm specifically referring to the deflation/money supply contraction arguments you've advanced which don't seem supported by later posts of yours.

Only loosely related: have you ever read Neptune's Brood by Charles Stross? It's a science fiction novel centered around banking, debts, and arbitrage. It's not exactly on-point with this thread, but if you like these topics you might like the book as well. I really enjoyed it.

-------R.I.P.-------

Selective Quote

~Too Late - Too Soon~

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I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the arguments, nor specifically what's being argued, but there does seem to be a very common theme here.

BrianRhineheart: It's fairly clear that you strongly believe in something you believe to have figured out. Now I've been watching you and Khaiy go back and forth for a bit now. It seems to me that this idea of yours either has no real substance to it (hence why no one understands it) or that it is well over everyone's heads here, since as I stated before, no one else here seems to get it. It certainly doesn't help that you seem to present everything as if its self explanatory, leading people to think that there really may be nothing to this. Seriously man, try to tone back the self-explanatory part of this. It's obviously not self-evident to anyone here.

You want "evidence"? Like a confession? From who!?


Ah yes, the classic conspiracy theory circular reference.
"Have you any evidence for this?"
"Of course not, the lack of evidence proves a cover up!"

This pretty much sums up a lot of this thread here.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the arguments, nor specifically what's being argued

...

This pretty much sums up

At least you were honest.

For the purpose of this concept:

100% of the principle at zero interest, marks the "overdebt" line.

Hence, what I'm suggesting is that the total repayment be less than the total amount borrowed (with conditions to prevent abuse/fraud).

Most people have a difficult time accepting this as possible, because they don't "think" like a bank. It (usually) never occurs to the borrower that the bank "creates" the money on the borrower's behalf.

Borrowers are also confused as to the main purpose of a home loan deposit - it's main purpose is to increase the bank's reserves and therefore increase the amount the bank can lend, as that way, the bank can always satisfy the ratio requirement as set by the Central Bank.

[Warning: Ramble ahead]

I like the system because it expands the money supply as needed. However, when others learn of how the system "actually" works, they react adversely, they go from one extreme to the other, labelling the entire system as "bad", and demanding it be replaced completely. Others have tried; Kings, Queens, Senators, Presidents... yet it never lasts (the power to issue money always returns to private bankers - its futile to oppose them).

The crux of the issue is always debt.

Money increases, and yet so does debt, but debt increases even more so than the money. While money remains easily visible, debt becomes "out of sight and out of mind". People tend to notice where money goes, while they ignore the influence of debt upon money. It lacks balance.

Too much debt has a strange social-effect on people. Their priorities can become distorted. It affects how they veiw success and how they might percieve others. They tend to treat others differently then they would if over-debt was not a common burden. "Overdebt" falls into the categories of both "nature" and "nurture".

Let's be honest; the true "art of the deal" is what I like to call the "51% factor". As long as you have controlling interest or get a bigger share of the profits, you'll always be "king". Most people see themselves as falling into the "49% or less" category. They don't see themselves or their contribution as equal. They undervalue themselves and this becomes especially true with regards to the money supply.

There is a master/servant mentality in quite a lot of people (especially amongst many wealthy) - this is at the heart of what that fellow talked about so many years ago, that went by the name starting with "J" or "S" or "P" - it'll come back to me later - who argued for everybody to "humble" themselves to an equal "servant" status.

I'd argue that the purpose of work is to secure a continuous supply of resources. I'd argue further that people aim towards an effortless as possible and a free as possible system - a "semi-retirement" phase, if you will. Anything beyond which I would deem "creative" work.

[Ramble: Clear.]

Yes, Central Banks are aware that inflation is neccessary (for growth), which is why they are dropping interest rates to record lows. However, working against this is debt. It would seem Central Banks are aware of this also, which is why the notion of "Helicopter Money" was given serious thought. Yet that would only allieviate the problem for a short time. Central Banks don't tell banks how much debt to tag onto the borrower - the bank decides that on their own.

It would take awareness on a massive scale for Banks to be convinced to accept a lower profit margin. The probability of this occuring depends on how quickly people learn how money is "created" - and while also (this is very important) understanding that <100% (under 100%) debt (with conditions to prevent abuse/fraud) is an acceptable "step 1" solution.

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Step 2 The Unburdening of Taxes

[Thread locked]

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Step 3 Multi-Generational Planning (Partial)

The Civic Credit System

What constitutes a living (without money)?

Access to nutritional food, clean water, energy, ammenities and information.

Securing one's safety and the safety of others.

Preventing & treating illness or injury.

Infrastructure for communication, travel and socializing.

The ability to obtain & refine resources for the purpose of "creating".

And the means to dispose of refuse responsibly. (typically the last thing people bother to consider)

"In society we trust."

So, why don't we have the option to only work for what we actually need? "Because somebody else is already doing the work" is not a justifiable answer.

If it is to be predicted that the human-workforce will begin to be made redundant by the robot-workforce, then what was the contigency plan within capitalism?

There have been lofty suggestions of "free money" and/or "a [guaranteed] basic income". Those would seem unfair to the people still working to provide non-workers what they need/want. And how would it ensure all people of what constitutes a living?

I (as always, it would seem {super smug emoji}) have a better idea.

Let's say the robots have won and "took yer j'b!". Or the economy is collapsing - take your pick. {both are likely to happen}

In the civic credit system, you (depending on eligibility) nominate yourself to be trained and allocated a "fair share" of service to various departments that are entrusted to provide what constitutes a living to all those who wish to be beneficeries of the civic credit system.

In the civic credit system, it is your contribution that "pays" for what you "need", in order to have what constitutes a living. The excuse for "a lack of funding" becomes obsolete. Jobs are created and filled as needed on a rotational basis. While temporarily "unemployed" you will still receive the benefits of the services that system provides. With continual improvements to the system, it ought to leave citizens with more leisure time, to do things like, oh, i don't know --make games :D

"Ask not, what your country can do for you. Ask, what you can do, for your [civic credit system]."

That was the simple-sales-pitch version. Care to be bored with more details?

I understand people's reluctance to read anything longer than 140 characters.

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The Banking Barons have my utmost respect.

People want to believe that banks don't keep the money they create out of nothing, SO BADLY.

The want to believe nobody can keep a secret that big, LOL!

When you don't care about how the systems works, it's easy for the system to take advantage of you.

What is really sad, is this has repeated itself throughout history many times.

What is THIS generation's excuse?

People would rather buy a lottery ticket than bother to understand the basic concept of wealth.

How many times do I have to watch people get chewed up and spat out by the economic system, while those unaffected sit on the fence and say "What problem?"?

Ignorance is every generation's greatest shame.

Every citizen finally has a chance to bring about some order to this chaotic economy. And what has the response been so far? Abysmal.

Where do I get the energy to persevere in spite of so much pessimism?

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New recruits in the military are told to "forget everything" so that their egos can be re-built to suit the needs of the hierarchy. Perhaps civilians needs to "forget" temporarily all the "rubbish" they have convinced themselves to be true about the money supply. There is more money today than there was in the past - how did that come to be? Start from there. If you still can't "get it", that only means you are not even trying to think for yourself.

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Hence, what I'm suggesting is that the total repayment be less than the total amount borrowed

Wait, are you Greek?

But on a serious note: You want me to give you 100 pieces of gold, and you promise to (maybe) pay back 90. Why would anyone who is half-way sane do that? You cannot really be serious about that idea.

Hence, what I'm suggesting is that the total repayment be less than the total amount borrowed

Wait, are you Greek?

But on a serious note: You want me to give you 100 pieces of gold, and you promise to (maybe) pay back 90. Why would anyone who is half-way sane do that? You cannot really be serious about that idea.

See that's where a lot of this falls apart for a lot of people imo. There's no reason for anyone to want to lend something without getting at least the equal amount in return. That capitalism will last as our means of resource allocation is a different story (and it will probably ultimately be replaced by something else) but this basic concept makes no sense at all.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Hence, what I'm suggesting is that the total repayment be less than the total amount borrowed

You want me to give you 100 pieces of gold, and you promise to (maybe) pay back 90. Why would anyone who is half-way sane do that? You cannot really be serious about that idea.

See that's where a lot of this falls apart for a lot of people imo. There's no reason for anyone to want to lend something without getting at least the equal amount in return.

I'm not talking about Gold. I'm talking about something that is completely made up.

Now I understand why there has been little progress.

People still believe that banks don't "create" money.

Until you are willing to accept that banks "create" money, there is no hope in understanding step 1 - none whatsoever.

(and it will probably ultimately be replaced by something else)

I mention what that might be in step 3, up thread: The "Civic Credit System"

I'm not talking about Gold. I'm talking about something that is completely made up.

Say what you will, "pieces of gold" or "dollars". It is the same thing, the idea is just ridiculous. You can trade X pieces of currency for Y amount of goods.

Nobody will lend you X currency on the premise of only paying back X-1 or 0.8 times X (well, that is not 100% accurate, student loans indeed work that way here, but this one doesn't really count because it's not truly a loan, but a form of sponsorship).

People still believe that banks don't "create" money.

Know, not believe.
Banks take money, they do not create it. They do give out money that they don't have (either formally, or taking from someone else), but that is not "creating" money. At best, one can consider it a snowball system, but never "creating" money.

It's the exact opposite of what you are saying. Real money disappears in their pocket in exchange for a promise.

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