There is also RTS engines available.

But I agree that spending a ton of cash on a first project is a waste. The games industry is a rough industry and with all the indie games available nowadays its easy for a title to get lost among the crowd. You have a good job which pays well, if I were you I'd use that to make my ideas come to life.

I think finding the right engine will be the least of a problem. It's the fact that I personally can't do anything with it. It would have to be the person I hire, in this case, a programmer.

This engine does not fit what I would need it for, but thanks for the link.

Now, how would you use the money to make your ideas to life?

It's not only an engine...it's an RTS engine it gets you alot closer to your goals than a generic engine. Here is a list of games made with it https://springrts.com/wiki/Games .

Again you can make a hobbyist help wanted ad in gamedev.net for a programmer. Consult with a programmer to see if it fits your needs or not, it's highly moddable as is (as is Glest http://glest.wikia.com/wiki/Modifying_Glest ) and is open source so the source is modifiable with some restrictions.

As to how to use the money... I would make two threads:

1. In the game design forum - do I need to know how to program/script in order to be a game designer? If the answer is no ask how to pursue your goals.

2. In the business forum - Ask how much money it takes to bring an idea/design to life and what kind of companies handle such requests.

Also you should really try to put a team together with you as the game designer. You should get some experience under your belt.

I'm not interested in working for somebody, that's for sure. My goal would be to have my own studio.

Okay. Then, given all the foregoing, the answer to your initial question is: no, it's not realistic.

Sorry for the double post, the forum is behaving weirdly for me, couldn't edit my post above with this quote without the name on the quote changing from Tom Sloper to Ballistix...

Tom, I see where you are coming from. Certainly trying to create such a big scoped game as your first is a bad idea. Certainly trying to found your own studio is only realistic when you factor in that it might take you 10 years or so to get there...

Certainly both goals are hard to plan for, neither a game that is way to big to finish in a sensible timeframe nor founding your own studio from nothing is something you should make a 5 year plan for.

Still, if he really is interested in it, and ready to work hard in his free time on both goals, I wouldn't go as far as calling it unrealistic. A long shot maybe, goals that have a 50-50 chance being reached ever, something that will eat up lots of lifetime. But very realistic as long you continue to work on it and don't let failures along the way drag you down...

I don't see any reason from your earlier post that indicate you could not learn to code.

When I was a kid, I was a self-taught programmer and I did code several games for the sake of it.

As it has been pointed out, there are a lot of engines out there that simplify the process if you have a specific genre in mind too.

Your assumption that you "need to hire a programmer and an artist" are thus incorrect, they rely upon the the unspoken assumptions that you want:

- Quick results

- Pro quality

If you can afford for this project to take longer and have semi-decent quality level, then doing it yourself is a much better approach. It doesn't mean you get to become a programmer and/or an artist in the long run, but it does teach you a lot about their trade, and in turn, makes you better able to communicate with them as a game designer and anticipate their line of questioning, and in turn, create better documentation.

Very interesting. So, let me ask you this. If you had to guess, or perhaps if you know this for a fact... Given three years of total learning, one person starts out with Python for say, 1 year and then switches over to learn C++ for another two years. Another person starts out with C++ as a first language and spends the entire three years learning it. Both guys are beginners. Who would be better off in the end and why? Let's keep in mind, game programming is the main focus here.

I'm just trying to figure out what will be the most efficient way for me to learn this. I really don't want to waste time on language which I won't even use later on, especially if it will not help me in any way.

Your reply is much appreciated.

On a side note, although I haven't seen python used in the game code of modern games (which doesn't necessarily mean there aren't modern games developed in python at all), I have seen an extended use of python in game companies for many kind of tools and automated tasks.

Your assumption that you "need to hire a programmer and an artist" are thus incorrect, they rely upon the the unspoken assumptions that you want:

- Quick results

- Pro quality

If you can afford for this project to take longer and have semi-decent quality level, then doing it yourself is a much better approach. It doesn't mean you get to become a programmer and/or an artist in the long run, but it does teach you a lot about their trade, and in turn, makes you better able to communicate with them as a game designer and anticipate their line of questioning, and in turn, create better documentation.

I understand what you're saying and I agree. In my case, I can't program nor I can make a professional looking models, therefore the only choice that made sense to me was to hire people who know how to do these things.

In my situation, it's all about figuring out which route is less disastrous. First one is, spend money to make demo by hiring people who do it, and have zero to minimum control over the project since I can't code. Second choice, start leaning how to code and hoping for the best, in this case, after spending two years minimum and have ability to make a terrible demo. I honestly don't know which one is worst.

I can spend about 30 hours a week to learn how to code. So, that's 720 hours in six months. I guess the only way to find out whether I have enough brain to make it work is to try it.

I'm not interested in working for somebody, that's for sure. My goal would be to have my own studio.

Okay. Then, given all the foregoing, the answer to your initial question is: no, it's not realistic.

Tom, I see where you are coming from. Certainly trying to create such a big scoped game as your first is a bad idea. Certainly trying to found your own studio is only realistic when you factor in that it might take you 10 years or so to get there...

Certainly both goals are hard to plan for, neither a game that is way to big to finish in a sensible time frame nor founding your own studio from nothing is something you should make a 5 year plan for.

Still, if he really is interested in it, and ready to work hard in his free time on both goals, I wouldn't go as far as calling it unrealistic. A long shot maybe, goals that have a 50-50 chance being reached ever, something that will eat up lots of lifetime. But very realistic as long you continue to work on it and don't let failures along the way drag you down...

Well, my 1st game is not really complex nor it is big. I bet an experienced programmer could make it happen in a matter of a few months (depending on how many hours per day he is willing to work on it).

As to the whole owning studio deal, this is the ultimate goal, not something immediate. I don't have eternity, no one does. If I was 20 years old, sure... time would not be an issue, but since I am pushing 33 already, it changed the whole perspective and it forces me to really come up with not necessarily the quickest, but most efficient way to move in that direction.

There is also RTS engines available.

But I agree that spending a ton of cash on a first project is a waste. The games industry is a rough industry and with all the indie games available nowadays its easy for a title to get lost among the crowd. You have a good job which pays well, if I were you I'd use that to make my ideas come to life.

Now, how would you use the money to make your ideas to life?

It's not only an engine...it's an RTS engine it gets you alot closer to your goals than a generic engine.

As to how to use the money... I would make two threads:

1. In the game design forum - do I need to know how to program/script in order to be a game designer? If the answer is no ask how to pursue your goals.

2. In the business forum - Ask how much money it takes to bring an idea/design to life and what kind of companies handle such requests.

Also you should really try to put a team together with you as the game designer. You should get some experience under your belt.

The RTS game I designed is purely economic with city building elements. There is no shooting whatsoever.

As to experience, I think game development school would be my best bet. They have some good projects where they get together as a team and create simple games etc.

Thanks a lot for a good advice.

As I mentioned above, I am not interested in pursuing a job, just to be in the industry. Maybe if I was 18 years old, it would be an option, but being almost 33 years old and having a good career definitely changes things a bit.

So, the only way that would make sense to me would be, signing up for Game Development programs at Columbia College here in Chicago. They have a really nice selection.

Also, I could start learning a programming language.

Bottom line is, I am not willing to drop my current career just to work in a game industry. I can spend the money I make now on learning things which I really need.

I did a little research and it seems that experienced programmers say to learn Python first, since I have no coding experience.

Then, why do they say Python, if nearly no one even uses it for production games? At what point do I stop with Python and switch over to something more complex (C or C++)?

I guess I am looking for the most efficient way of even having a crack at making it happen. Apparently, without knowing how to code, I can forget about the whole deal. Thing is, what if I spend 2-3 years learning how to program and I still won't be able to make a game (which will most likely be the case). All this money and time, absolutely wasted. Sure, hiring a programmer will not give me the exact results, but neither will my weak programming skills even after spending who knows how many years learning.

You never know when a language can become useful down the road, and as long as you just see it as a stepping stone for greater things (like to learn programming basics preparing you for a smoother transition to C++), learning python first is not the worst idea.

Thanks for such elaborate reply man.

So, why don'y you finally finish something and release it?! I mean, games like Terraria or damn FTL sell millions of copies.

You know, I wish I started learning all this stuff even 10 years ago, it would have been such a different situation right now. I bet I would have my own studio by now.

The trick is, I can either start learning now and hope for the best, or find myself 10 years from now saying the same damn thing I'm saying now.

In my situation, it's all about figuring out which route is less disastrous. First one is, spend money to make demo by hiring people who do it, and have zero to minimum control over the project since I can't code. Second choice, start leaning how to code and hoping for the best, in this case, after spending two years minimum and have ability to make a terrible demo. I honestly don't know which one is worst.

Don't underestimate the value of engines.

For example, making games with something like Unity takes tremendously less time than it would from scratch and it requires significantly much less of an understanding of how things actually work if you intend on keeping to simple features. If you can commit to a project that has a limited level of complexity, doing it on your own could be much faster than you might be assuming.

It takes a lot of hard work, of course, but having 30h/w is actually a lot to spend on this kind of project, so assuming you are dedicated, you could be cutting on your programming or 3D budget by 'doing it yourself'.

As I mentioned above, I am not interested in pursuing a job, just to be in the industry. Maybe if I was 18 years old, it would be an option, but being almost 33 years old and having a good career definitely changes things a bit.

So, the only way that would make sense to me would be, signing up for Game Development programs at Columbia College here in Chicago. They have a really nice selection.

Also, I could start learning a programming language.

Bottom line is, I am not willing to drop my current career just to work in a game industry. I can spend the money I make now on learning things which I really need.

I did a little research and it seems that experienced programmers say to learn Python first, since I have no coding experience.

Then, why do they say Python, if nearly no one even uses it for production games? At what point do I stop with Python and switch over to something more complex (C or C++)?

I guess I am looking for the most efficient way of even having a crack at making it happen. Apparently, without knowing how to code, I can forget about the whole deal. Thing is, what if I spend 2-3 years learning how to program and I still won't be able to make a game (which will most likely be the case). All this money and time, absolutely wasted. Sure, hiring a programmer will not give me the exact results, but neither will my weak programming skills even after spending who knows how many years learning.

You never know when a language can become useful down the road, and as long as you just see it as a stepping stone for greater things (like to learn programming basics preparing you for a smoother transition to C++), learning python first is not the worst idea.

Thanks for such elaborate reply man.

So, why don'y you finally finish something and release it?! I mean, games like Terraria or damn FTL sell millions of copies.

You know, I wish I started learning all this stuff even 10 years ago, it would have been such a different situation right now. I bet I would have my own studio by now.

The trick is, I can either start learning now and hope for the best, or find myself 10 years from now saying the same damn thing I'm saying now.

Well, I enjoy making games, and making my visions a reality. That is my priority at the moment. To be honest, if I would have started game development with the goal of making a ton of money, I would have stopped doing it long ago. It is REALLY hard to even survive just on making games, lets not talk about selling millions of copies.

Really, unless you have brilliant idea, a lot of luck (hard to plan for), or are already a big studio with a good plan and some luck, making enough money to keep afloat should be your goal first, not selling millions of copies.

Reality check no. 1 in the game industry: almost no game ever enjoys the success of FTL, or Angry Birds, or Flappy bird. Its a one in a million thing. Hoping for such a runaway success is like betting on winning the lottery.

Now, the ONLY real reason to stick to it and continue striving for an Indie career or working on game dev as a hobbyist is because you love the craft. Which happens to be the case for me. I don't really need to release games for that, altough I plan to be doing that at some point. But I am realistic in the sense that I know this will most probably never be my main source of income... and I am okay with that, as long as I get the freedom in return to do whatever I want and enjoy, without being bound by market analysis, marketing pressure and overambitious profit goals.

As to not having an eternity: that is completly fine. Nobody forces you to create huge games, or AAA quality. You can create smaller, simpler games much quicker, and with less skill needed. If you insist on hiring other people, it might also be cheaper as the whole game can be done quicker.

Again, make sure you do the reality check on that: Chances for a runaway success is even smaller the simpler the game is. Hoping for a RoI with a small mobile game is futile, unless it was produced for free in the shortest amount of time (there are exceptions *cough*Flappy Birds*cough*, but again, one in a million).

Even here, if you're doing it for the money and not for the love of the craft, its not a good idea.

Caveat: I hear some people saying that if you have a good process, you can survive on shovelware.... lots, LOTS of shovelware. The process would be to release as many games as possible in as little time as possible and hope for a constant trickle of income from the many inApp payments, Ads or whatever your monetization plan is else.

If you want to follow that process, you might be able to survive in the App stores without being the one in a million.

Last thing: There was never a better time to start than now. For one, in the sense that there never where more resources available to learn game development and produce quality stuff, a lot of it for free. And also in the sense that 10 years ago, you might not have had what it takes to start a game dev career... the most important thing, a strong drive to start with, obviously was missing in the first place.

As long as you are not aiming for a position in an AAA company, this is not like aiming for a sports career, where you have to start at 5 or you are never a star before you get to old (which might be 20 for some sports). If you are aiming at being an Indie or Hobbyist, there is no "being too old"...

I do know the feeling of "either do it now, or regret it later"... that is why I started myself besides other things. I do not regret it until now, even though I must have sunk 1000's of hours into various of my projects, programming, producing art for, and designing my game prototypes.

Why not give it a try? Just try to not start with hiring peoples, until you are damn sure you know what you are paying for. You might also pick up some technical and art skills on your way there, but as I said before, they never hurt in this business.