In China, 'everyone is guilty of corruption'

My phrasing aligns with the citation quite well.


L. Spiro

I believe TheChubu was referring to "80th most corrupt vs 19th most corrupt" - kinda nitpicking here, but really the way it's phrased it actually means USA is more corrupt than China...if, say, we sorted 100 people based on weight, the "19th most heavy" would be heavier than the "80th most heavy", wouldn't it? :P

Welcomed because of their stable government, good manufacturing practices, and strong social ideals and commitment to inclusive, representative governance.

Feared because of their hyper-introverted economic focus to the detriment of their neighbors and econo-imperialist tendencies.

That's surely a joke?

There is no such thing as a stable government here. We have the rule of minorities and the rule of absurdity. The only good things about our government is that the chancellor is too lethargic to change something most of the time, and things works more or less OK the way they are. Also, she is still a little bit less stupid and a bit less obnoxious than the socialists and the ultra-lefts and the greens. Not much, though. But at least she isn't making things worse most of the time (which the socialists do all the time!).

Now she is in coalition with the socialists, who are the most unsocial, corrupt vermin you can possibly imagine. None of the things they plan are social in any way, even if they make appear. They're first and foremost interested in creating new functions for their comrades, and to appear social with deceitful "presents" to the workers (which only make their lives worse, however). Not even their approach to the coalition treaty is honest, although the man who dreamed he be chancellor would like to make appear. If there was ever a two-class democracy, it's what we have right now. If you pay the SPD fee, you are entitled to two elections. everybody else only gets one. Everybody is equal, huh.

Besides, just like Schröder sold us to the Russians, the man who dreamed he be chancellor Gabriel sold us to the Chinese. He was the driver of the forceful change to "energy saving lightbulbs" which not only do not hold their promise (red-green idea, no surprise!) but are also highly hazardous. Just like the EEG tax, another social red-green environmental fart. It effectively makes electricity more expensive (which mostly the poor get to feel) to subsidize Chinese solar panels. Solar panels already don't work very good in a place where you have sun, but in Germany it's just ridiculous. As much as massively planting rapeseed for "ecofuel" after first going through the hassle of making all refrigerators cfc-halon-free. This does two things: Food gets more expensive, which again the poor feel most, and it kills ozone like crazy.

Unluckily, our government listens to these nutters, too when they only shout loud enough. That's what happend after Fukushima.

Good manufacturing practices, at least in a relative sense, is something that is still true in some fields, but you pay a lot for these too.

In many fields, however, you only pay expensive and get the same low standard shit as everywhere else. Not rarely, you get some Chinese shit or some eastern European stuff nowadays, relabelled with a once-good German brand, exploiting the former "quality name".

In service, you even get considerably less for a quite above-average price, if you compare Germany to other countries. Same is true for food, unless you are willing to pay about twice as much as e.g. in France.

Econo-imperialist tendencies is something I'm almost inclined to see as an insult. That's not at all what is going on (although sure enough that's what some pennyless EU countries are shouting). What's really the case is that there is an economic community in which certain members are givers and others are takers. And now the givers tell the takers to economize, and they dictate them what to do. Why? Because they can no longer afford to throw money into a bottomless pit. It is unbelieveable with what implicitness and arrogance people demand to have the same social status as in other places, but without working or paying taxes.

What is happening is that those who pay the bill tell those who are having their free lunch a few rules. And those rules aren't even nearly as stict as they should be, nor are they being followed closely. These rules are not much more than what they should have been doing for the last 30 years anyway.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it fails the Occam's razor test pretty badly.

Our people needs room. Recognize that sentence? It does not fail Occam's razor as badly as you may think, and it applies to China more than it ever did to any other nation. It is unavoidable for China to "acquire" new lands. They have far too many people, and their lands are more and more uninhabitable.

In China, 'everyone is guilty of corruption'

My phrasing aligns with the citation quite well.


L. Spiro

I believe TheChubu was referring to "80th most corrupt vs 19th most corrupt" - kinda nitpicking here, but really the way it's phrased it actually means USA is more corrupt than China...if, say, we sorted 100 people based on weight, the "19th most heavy" would be heavier than the "80th most heavy", wouldn't it?

Details details…

L. Spiro

There is no such thing as a stable government here. [...] The only good things about our government is that the chancellor is too lethargic to change something most of the time, and things works more or less OK the way they are.

So there's a revolution coming down the pike any day now, is that it? Or a major governmental re-alignment that will radically change life for Germans? Stable =/= ideal or incorruptible, and though I won't pretend any particular knowledge about German government my impression is that Germany is about as representative a government as any other today and has about as much respect for and dedication to its citizens as anyone else.

Good manufacturing practices, at least in a relative sense, is something that is still true in some fields, but you pay a lot for these too.
In many fields, however, you only pay expensive and get the same low standard shit as everywhere else. Not rarely, you get some Chinese shit or some eastern European stuff nowadays, relabelled with a once-good German brand, exploiting the former "quality name".
In service, you even get considerably less for a quite above-average price, if you compare Germany to other countries. Same is true for food, unless you are willing to pay about twice as much as e.g. in France.

But no child laborers, sweatshops, or just-this-side-of-slavery style employment, right? That was more what I had meant than an arbitrary degree of quality in products or value based on price. India and China are both deeply invested in manufacturing and some service areas, but their production practices are much, much worse for their workers.

Econo-imperialist tendencies is something I'm almost inclined to see as an insult. That's not at all what is going on

Sure it is. The groundwork for the current German economy was based around de facto inflation in other Eurozone countries making importing German goods more attractive without tanking German wages or other difficult internal adjustments. Germany used this to great effect and wisely invested the gains domestically. But they are now actively preventing any inflation from happening in the Eurozone to the maximum extent that they can, forcing the troubled Eurozone countries to adjust via deflation and high unemployment. They will eventually adjust, but it's an incredibly heavy price for their affected citizens to pay to protect German savers while being denied the conditions that allowed Germany to reach the position it's in today.

It's not a givers-and-takers dynamic that's the issue but a "we got ours" dynamic. The measures Germany has been championing for the troubled countries haven't been working for those countries at all, have failed in other countries that have tried them, and are questionably sound in theory as well. The only attractive piece (to many people, at least) is a moral component in which the troubled countries are seen to have been bad, and so suffering is proper for them regardless of whether or not it serves any more practical purpose.

Our people needs room. Recognize that sentence? It does not fail Occam's razor as badly as you may think, and it applies to China more than it ever did to any other nation. It is unavoidable for China to "acquire" new lands. They have far too many people, and their lands are more and more uninhabitable.

The thing is, that analysis doesn't help explain why I should accept your very specific premise. I have to make a ton of assumptions to believe that China will, rather than any other options, engage in a worldwide war with many other nations at once, on multiple fronts, and win, and exercise real hegemony over all of them. Population problems and crappy factories absolutely fit in to that narrative, but they also fit in to lots and lots of others which seem a lot more realistic to me. Invoking Lebensraum doesn't change that. I'm just not seeing any compelling reason to accept the scenario as you've outlined it as the only possible one, with no changes or adjustments being possibilities.

I am not a fan how the chinese government treated its people in the past and how they are doing things currently.

BUT:
Toxic child toys are not only China's fault. Neither from the government nor from the companies. It is a little bit short sighted to judge the country in which these toys and other goods are manufactured.

There are many companies which can produce their goods abroad and specify how these goods are produced and what exact materials to be used. These companies are responsible for ensuring that these products are non-toxic and conform to safety regulations. These companies should be held liable for any damages that may arise.

If you understand german you can read more about it here. But I think the translation of google or any other translation services could help to understand this article.

The current and coming german government isn't great. Chancellor Merkel is sitting out most of the problems and sensible laws are passed only in homeopathic doses. Some call here "Miss Teflon". There were very many laws in the past, which have been blocked by the Constitutional Court. Most of the ministers in the Cabinet are, putting it mildly, unable to fulfill their job properly. Some ministers, including Chancellor Angela Merkel, were accused in relation to the NSA affair perjury. If it actually comes to a grand coalition in the Bundestag then Germany has no functioning opposition.

If you denounce the problems in a country, then you should also look at the larger picture that lead to these problems.

So there's a revolution coming down the pike any day now, is that it? Or a major governmental re-alignment that will radically change life for Germans? Stable =/= ideal or incorruptible, and though I won't pretend any particular knowledge about German government my impression is that Germany is about as representative a government as any other today and has about as much respect for and dedication to its citizens as anyone else.

No. Revolution is not going to happen (though nobody can predict what the future will bring, revolution is very certainly not happening). Revolution is "un-German", but the Government has taken strong measures to prevent that kind of thing to happen in any case, too. What will happen is that everybody's life gets a bit worse, and people will complain. But it will all go on as usual.

Radical governmental change, again, who can predict the future -- but probably not. Either way it's not the radical governmental changes that matter, it's the concessions that do. Concessions such as a minimum wages, or women quotas, or unrealistic promises on pension claims. Or the concession to exit nuclear energy over night because the people wants it (when in fact "the people" was 100,000 greens demonstrating in the street and a few demagoges taking Fukushima as a proof that we will all die tomorrow if we don't do something harsh and stupid at once).

All those ideas sound good to the proletarian, and surely they sound very social too, but they all only make everybody's life worse. And, what's cynical, mostly the lives of the poor. It's like most of the eco stuff which not only proved senseless but also made life more expensive for everyone. The rich need not worry much, but it is quite hard for the poor.

And of course, it's all a bit more evolved as the casual observer (even one living here) can see. For example, the socialists are complaining and blaming the government for lack of education. Which is true too, except, well except one little detail. Education is put in the hands of the federal lands, not the government's. And, it is first and foremost the socialist-ruled lands which are total failures. So what the casual (and foreign) observer sees is that the socialists want more education (and kindergardens, and, and ...) and the evil conservative government is not providing it. Whereas in truth, it's quite the opposite.

Trivia: The "reasoning" behind this design is that the government should have as litle power to educate children in a centralized manner as possible to prevent someone like Hitler from rising again. Of course school is totally government controlled and centralized in many countries, for example in France, and no such thing happens.

It is for the same reason that our USA-dictated constitution which includes ratification by the Landtag and antipodal election cycles is so cunning -- it pretty much guarantees that a government can't do much of a substantial change (Bundestag and Landtag are usually dominated by opposing majorities).

Effectively, this makes Germany's government the running joke that it is. Some people (e.g. the current US president) show this more openly while others display a bit more decency, but that doesn't change a lot to the fact. Not even the Greek take us seriously, and they don't even have a functional government themselves.

But no child laborers, sweatshops, or just-this-side-of-slavery style employment, right? That was more what I had meant than an arbitrary degree of quality in products or value based on price. India and China are both deeply invested in manufacturing and some service areas, but their production practices are much, much worse for their workers.

No child laborers here, yes. Sweatshops, it depends on how you define it. Compared to the 1980s, not few people work in almost sweatshop-like conditions now. That, and not few products actually come from sweatshops in India, China, and more recently Myanmar or Somalia. They only get a German label, or maybe 2-3 extra parts and the label. You still get to pay the full price, however. Which is not value based on price.

Ask me why I'm driving a Toyota if German cars are so great. Ask me why my plasma is Japanese, and my shoes, shirts, and trousers are French (...and manufactured in Kameroun). 20 years ago, you would pay a lot of money (measured on an average income) to have a Grundig or Loewe TV and a Dual record player or anyting Made in Germany. They'd last 20 years and be of top quality. Made in Germany practically guaranteed that something would work 100% for decades.

Today you still pay a lot of money for those products (measured on an average income) but you get some Chinese components assembled in Hungary, and they break within 2 years. Sometimes they don't even function as specified at all (for example the Dual DAB+/UKW receiver with MP3 player that I bought 6 months ago fails to play back DAB+ and fails to properly play MP3 as well. That's two out of three advertized properties. Hey, I should probably be happy that a receiver that costs twice as much as a Japanese one can at least do one out of three things).

Sure it is. The groundwork for the current German economy was based around de facto inflation in other Eurozone countries making importing German goods more attractive without tanking German wages or other difficult internal adjustments. Germany used this to great effect and wisely invested the gains domestically. But they are now actively preventing any inflation from happening in the Eurozone to the maximum extent that they can, forcing the troubled Eurozone countries to adjust via deflation and high unemployment. They will eventually adjust, but it's an incredibly heavy price for their affected citizens to pay to protect German savers while being denied the conditions that allowed Germany to reach the position it's in today.

That is what it may seem, and it is partially what the government's propaganda says, too. In reality, the whole Euro thing was extremely expensive for us. We had and still have a gallopping inflation in Germany. Official figures tell something different, but they're simply lies. Unemployment is massive (also, contrary to propaganda), especially in the east. Why do you think Neonazis are such a problem in the east? If people were happy and had jobs, they wouldn't have time (or need) to think about that kind of shit.

Before the Euro, I could buy a week's worth of food (nothing special, just food) for 50 Marks. Now I can buy 3 days worth of food for 50 Euros, which is twice the price for half the wares. When I am in France, I am always surprised how much cheaper many things are. Tomatoes 0.99 the kilogram at Auchan, and Mangos for 0.79 each in September? Are you kidding me? Mangos are between 1.10 and 1.30 in December (2.99 in September) and you hardly find tomatoes that aren't half-rotten for under 3 Euros. Pistaches and Cashews are roughly 1/2 the price in France. Fish and poultry is of much higher quality and costs a third less. Wine, surprisingly, is the same plus minus 10 cents (even for French wine!).
Of course France is going down the drain too, or I'd emigrate, but they've got a socialist government which is even worse than ours... ask someone from France how much tax they're paying now compared to 5 years ago. And don't forget to ask about the péage they gotta pay on the autoroutes that Hollande gave away to privately held companies (built from tax payer's money, and now that same tax payer has to pay to use them!). Rather be dead than be red.

A lot of people in Germany are poor nowadays. I am happy enough to belong to the richest 5% in the country, so the high cost doesn't really bother me in any way, but it's not like I wouldn't notice anyway. And it's not like I'm not aware that a lot of people have to struggle. The cost of electricity has almost doubled since 2000, fuel oil has tripled. Drinking water has only gone up by a moderate 15% (though we're still second most expensive after Denmark). Thing is, everybody needs electricty and water, and everybody needs to heat, the poor as much (or even more, since cheaper appliances work less efficiently) as the rich.

The thing is, that analysis doesn't help explain why I should accept your very specific premise. I have to make a ton of assumptions to believe that China will, rather than any other options, engage in a worldwide war with many other nations at once

Like I said, they do not need to engage in open war. They have been in "war" for decades, and they have won it, on every account. They own you, and they own us. They're buying every mine and industry in Africa that they can get hands on. And, they must rigidly control their birth rates while we are stagnating or diminuishing. Fertility is going down, auto-immune diseases and diabetes are going up. Knowledge and expertise is more and more outsourced. Coincidence? You really believe that?

Thing is, we need the Chinese, but they don't really need us. Not any more. All they need is our land, and they'll take it. Before your children (if you have any) will know, they'll work in a company and live in a house owned by a Chinese and do what he tells them.

The current and coming german government isn't great. Chancellor Merkel is sitting out most of the problems and sensible laws are passed only in homeopathic doses.

That's absolutely right, but like I said, this is still better than what the others do with their half-witted, half-assed actionism. I'm actually happy that she is so lethargic, at least she isn't making things rapidly worse.

Some ministers, including Chancellor Angela Merkel, were accused in relation to the NSA affair perjury.

The full story should be told, though. These accusations came mostly from Steinbrück and Gabriel in an attempt to discredit her before the elections.

And, what's most cynical about it is that the allegion was "Mrs. Merkel knew about it!". Of course she did, who didn't. It has been an open secret for 30 years that the USA are spying on us, and it has been public knowledge since 2001 that they do it with the government's consent. How could anyone not know, we have explicit laws that allow for it.

But the point is, Merkel, like everybody, knew about it. Whereas Gabriel is actively guilty of it. It was Schröder and Gabriel who made the deal with the NSA in 2001.

Of course, as always, the socialists do not mention that little detail.

Thing is, we need the Chinese, but they don't really need us. Not any more. All they need is our land, and they'll take it. Before your children (if you have any) will know, they'll work in a company and live in a house owned by a Chinese and do what he tells them.

How is this any different than living and working for any arbitrary non-Chinese people who engage in the same practices? To me, it sounds like you're TRYING to be paranoid/pessimistic, but are arbitrarily focusing your paranoia/pessimism towards people that are essentially just doing the same things everyone else is.

After we're dead, it doesn't matter who rules who.

Keep your facts right! It wasn't Gabriel who made the deal with the NSA it was Mr. Steinmeyer1 (also from the socialists party) Edit: Gabriel was at that time prime minister of lower saxony.

The CDU did also bad things.2

Yes Merkel knew it and she hasn't done anything against it. Thats a fact. She knew that the germans are spied and what has she done? Nothing! What did Mr Pofalla (from the same party as Ms Merkel)? He told that the affair has ended3.

Either Merkel knew it and she hasn't done anything against it. Then the accusation of perjury may be correct.
Or she knew it and she wanted to do something against it but couldn't. The she is incapable to lead this country.

You may know but in the year 1968 there was a secret agreement between Germany, the US and Great Britain for transmission of communication data for the secret services. These agreement also allowed to spy on the german citizen. It was done under the government from Kiesinger (CDU).4The remit of such agreements lies with the Ministry of the Interior. Paul Lücke and Ernst Benda (both CDU) were minister for inner affairs at that time.

It isn't only the fault of the socialists. All parties in the Bundestag have "Dreck am Stecken"

So please don't tell its only the fault of the socialists. I didn't vote for them and I knew the saying "Wer hat uns verraten? Die Sozialdemokraten" ("Who betrayed us? The Social Democrats") . But I really hate it when one says its only the fault of party X or party Y.

1 - http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/datenweitergabe-des-bnd-an-us-geheimdienst-steinmeier-soll-deal-mit-nsa-abgesegnet-haben-1.1740994
2 - http://www.braunschweiger-zeitung.de/kultur/buecher/cdu-geheimdienst-gegen-willy-brandt-id935011.html
3 - http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-08/nsa-bnd-pofalla--bundestag-spaehaffaere-snowden-abkommen
4 - http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Geheimdienst-Vereinbarung-aufgekuendigt-article11107271.html

Yeah, ya know what guys, if we are going to keep this open how about toning down the xenophobia a bit eh?