I'm not good enough, now what?

Green_Gill · 2013-09-07T19:18:17

I apologize if this is longwinded. It has to be longwinded because I am constantly berated with anti-mmo propaganda every time I post and treated like a noob. Am I a noob: probably. Do the other noobs actually have an RPG engine, no. Do the other noobs actually have an engine that is currently in use in a commercial MMORPG: No. Do the other noobs have full rights to the source code: no. So, please, do not make me post ANOTHER of these longwinded threads with YET MORE disclaimers again. First off, let me say that this is not another MMO thread. I have an engine, I have an AI toolkit, I have a replacement renderer that's faster than one from the multimillion dollar company that made the engine and it held a world record. (Admittedly, not for very long, world records are very competitive). I have procedural generators for a lot of things (nothing modern for scenery, but indoors should be doable via extrusion/csg and I have a paper that if implemented should help with that[estimate, one week to code, 6 weeks to debug, it's a simple algorithm]). When I last posted the engine I had wasn't being used. Now, two years later, it is actually powering an MMO. It had already been used in several titles the highest budget one of which was just over 3 million, if I'm recalling correctly. It should (without the pieces I have, of which the utility is unproven) be completable with 1 year from a person with over 12 years (absolute minimum) of game development experience, though 20 would be more likely. The sad thing is... I have this amazing engine that I have no hope of attaining the skill to complete within the next decade. It's modern and up to date now. It's over-engineered for any task other than RPG's and is not suitable for an FPS. (If you want an FPS, I honestly just recommend cryengine, if you want an MMOFPS, I just recommend crying.) MMOFPS with either Cryengine or Unreal: the profit margin is too slim. MMOFPS on your own: people nowadays expect Crysis or Unreal level graphics. I'm a realist, I'm a pragmatist, and that's causing me two problems. One: I have this engine, if I don't use it that's a wasted resource. It represents hundreds of thousands of dollars of developer time. (Before those of you chime in 'oh that poor developer', it was funded and the copyright is owned by a company. You could download the engine today... all you have to do is recognize it's greatness[amongst all the thousands of junk engines], find it, and actually posess the skill to use it. Good luck.) The license, however, is irrevocable and grants me every permission I could ever need/want. Including the right to restrict others from doing the same should I provide it to them, so... not GPL.) Two: Considering my skill and the economy, developing a game is rather impractical. While I am most of the way through a degree in computer science, I'm nowhere near a game developer, am not in the game development curriculum, and I actually hope to get a rather mild-mannered job as a UI programmer someday. :) Give me a regular 9-5. Anyway, back when I was a noob, I, like everyone, got bit by the MMO bug. As I still considered it impractical, I did not start developing an MMO, I, instead, logged hundreds of hours on the internet scouring it for every thing I could possibly need to complete the one engine I could find that I felt had hope. (I found the disc recently, not sure where I put it, guess I should look for it again). My goal was to enable a single person, without assistance, to create an MMO. (Except for world models, though I do have a procedural human generator that, when combined with something else, might not even require artists.) The sad fact is that while a single person could do it with the completed engine, the last piece that takes it from 'a team' to 'one person' was never completed... and will never be. The original developer was good enough, but I doubt anyone else will be capable. I have multiple choices for SSAO shaders of varying optimizations as well as a genetic shader generator. Now what? Honestly, I just want to see this engine finished and in my hands. Now that it is proven, it is more important than ever to me that I have the finished version of the engine. I don't care if any of my 'pieces' are added, honestly, I'd rather have the simple completed engine that exists now... the one from the MMO... but that isn't available to me anymore as the company that created it is no longer releasing new versions of the engine. (A change in management). Please do not ask me to post the engine, others are pursuing it's open source completion, and I leave that to them, I am looking into different routes, while I would love an open source solution, based upon their results it is unlikely/impossible. There are plenty of other great engines... (maybe) if I did not have this one and could not stand closed source I would likely look at http://g3d.sourceforge.net It has been used 4 times professionally, though I only know of Titan's Quest. Most people lack the skill to complete the engine and will likely not understand what it is capable of. The FPS programmers I have shown it to called it overengineered, while the game programming grad students I have shown it to were impressed but are busy with other projects [Also called: a paycheck, though one guy is trying to complete it... but he's not sharing and I didn't give him the engine anyway. Ironically, he almost tanked a company last time he tried to finish a previous version of the game enigne and they both died... it had a design flaw he was unaware of]. The engine is 1 year from completion by the original author and anyone capable of taking his place would need to be solvent for a year and VERY capable. In short: they would be fictional in this economy. So... how do I get the engine completed. Please save whether or not it should be as well as trolling/spamming me for another thread. (Feel free to link), this post is simply... how would you get the engine completed. No nonconstructive posts please. I, honestly, believe it would be more useful for me to write a novel, as that is where most of my talent lies. That said, this is likely the closest I will be to such an engine for many years and it's currently being used. It's no longer just a theory, the finished engine works... and it works well. I... only have most of the years of work that went into it. So, any ideas on how I can get it to completion.. Yes, I realize I can't make an MMO with just an engine. That doesn't change the fact that I want the engine and am not good enough to finish it myself. Yes, it is multithreaded and multicore. Yes, it is portable. Yes, it is professional. No, you will not be able to use it by yourself even if you finish it, it is a professional engine designed for an AA pipeline, it doesn't even have a blender importer (there was either a Maya and/or a 3ds max importer, but I don't think I have that). Actually, the fact that it is a professional engine is likely why open source authors/coders haven't picked up on it. Why complete an engine when you'll need to find a team (who likely won't work for free) to use it. And finally, no, the engine I have is not better than Elder Scrolls, Warcraft, [Insert RPG with budget of millions here]. Actually, being multicore helps a game engine surprisingly little as the bottleneck is usually the GPU. Please, if you have any ideas. I've tried talking with companies(only smaller ones, bigger ones are too difficult to communicate with), they seem interested, but want 'exclusive collateral' to drum up investment basically meaning they want something only they own. That's fine... but I suspect that it would be the engine, and that's not someting I'm prepared to allow. (My only reason for talking to them is to get the engine finished). They're after money, I'm thousands of dollars in debt from college, and would rather have the engine. I have also considered a kickstarter to drum up the $200,000k+ to pay the few programmers capable of finishing the engine (who are also capable of writing said engine from scratch) to work for a year. I think, in all my searching, I found 3 such programmers... one is making his own game. I"ve also considered other methods of developing smaller games to pay for the engine. (Simple games) That, and the writing, are the two I am pursuing directly, though my own completion rate is staggeringly low. This is specifically about the engine, NOT about developing an MMO. The engine is perfectly suitable for a single player RPG and has been used in multiple single-player commercial titles and only one MMO, if anything it is MORE suitable for a single player RPG. So... what can be done to get this engine finished?

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Started by Green_Gill September 01, 2013 04:34 AM

9 comments, last by shadowisadog 11 years, 2 months ago

OandO

1,576

September 07, 2013 04:10 PM

Edit: My post didn't... well... post...

I haven't read your previous posts, but it sounds like you're a beginner, forgive me if I've got the wrong impression.

So, you've managed to get hold of an engine that you can't yet use and can't complete, is that correct? That's quite clearly a dead-end for the time being at least. If you want to want to encourage someone to help you're going to have to either front up a lot of cash - which you say you don't have, have a track-record to prove you're worth working with - which if you do have you're being very quiet about, or be an orator an a par with Caesar... Don't be afraid of the "flipping burgers" route, I'd wager the majority of people here have had to do something equally menial as a way of supporting themselves at some stage, I know I certainly have. You're discussing development as a career, right? In that case you have to put survival first and the wonderful dreams about what you want to achieve second, unfortunately.

The point is you need to evaluate what you're capable of producing right now, and if you're not yet able to complete this engine that you want to use then do something else useful until you are. Improve your skills, work on a much (much much) smaller project and see what interest you can get with that, and so on.

shadowisadog

3,219

September 07, 2013 07:18 PM

Your best bet of that ever happening is to make smaller games to build experience, assemble a team of like minded people once you have the experience to lead them properly, and work to get the engine complete.

Many people I know have taken the approach you describe and failed utterly. Some of them still struggle to this day. Look up Radu Privantu. Additionally, like minded people with the skill won't do it for free, so it's the same, I'll still have to earn the money.
Also, the economy is going to get worse (it will not rebound) if I'm going to do it, I had better hurry.

I hate to be rude, but you fail to see the forest for the trees here.

Many people fail at all sorts of things. It is not the failure that you need to focus on. Giving up is the most sure fire way to never accomplish your dreams and goals.

You said "Look up Radu Privantu" so here is some advice from him:

A. I have a tip for those starting their own MMORPG: Unless you are really experienced, and have an artist, you should start writing a MUD server first. Mud servers require considerably less work than an MMORPG, and no art at all (well, except maybe for some ASCII art). Only after you finish this MUD server think about starting making an MMORPG. And if you are not a programmer, don't even think of starting working at an MMORPG until you at least STUDY some programming books and become familiar with a programming language, such as C/C++. This is because otherwise no one will take you seriously (there are, after all, many people with great ideas; the hard thing is implementing them)

~ http://www.gamedev.net/topic/301023-interview-with-radu-privantu-aka-raduprv-creator-of-eternal-lands/

Starting with small games so that you learn what you are doing is THE path to learn game programming and game design. It is foolish to expect a master piece the first time you put brush to canvas!

If you feel you must "hurry" with game development then I guarantee that you WILL fail. You personally need many years of experience still before you can even handle managing this project.

I could make some company a million dollars, but I can't do anything for my self. Deja-vu. I didn't solve this problem last time either.

No... You can't make a company a million dollars with what you have right now. Every financially stable company I know of would not even consider talking about your engine for fear that they could get sued by you if they happened to somehow make something that you thought was similar to what you showed them (assuming there is something worth taking).

You don't "solve" this problem. The problem isn't one that you have. It is not that you can make a company a million dollars, it is that you really have nothing to offer them right now.

Finishing school isn't an option, financially.

If you do not have money to invest in your education, then you do not have the money to invest in an MMORPG. You are far better off focusing on how to finish your education.

Let me finish with an analogy:

I could have the best cameras on the market and I could have the best film editing software in the world, but that does not mean that I will create a film that people will want to watch. Having the tools does not equate to being able to use them. It is not the tools that make the project, but the developers. It is the same logic that wearing the same shoes as a pro basketball player does not mean you will be good at basketball.

Here is something you should watch that I feel illustrates this point:

https://vimeo.com/70748579

Edit:

Here are my steps for success for you:

1. Work at a job and save money or take loans so that you can finish school.

2. Work on small games and projects so that you develop experience.

3. Build a showcase of completed small games and projects

4. If you are lucky start being good enough to make money off of these projects (although that is not a guarantee)

5. Eventually get the skills required to make the MMORPG game that you want to make

6. Spend years of your life working on it.

There are no shortcuts, so stop looking for them.

Best of luck.

I'm not good enough, now what?

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