Time is money and most developers were rather pay a bit more for someone they know is going to deliver than waste more time with someone who is a variable

I'm going to have to disagree with my good friend Nathan.. I'd say that most professional developers would rather pay significantly more for someone they know is going to deliver on time, on budget with a good attitude. In fact, that's a great deal of the value/worth of the composer.

There is always a better composer out there, who will work for less. But when you are a developer with deadline pressures of your own, having to juggle 50 balls of scheduling, art, programmer issues, bugs, management feedback, etc. the last thing you want to have to do is worry about sound/music, or having to deal with a hurt ego if you give criticism and the composer takes it too personally. I'd say that 50% of a composer's fee is "insurance policy that things will be delivered on time and on budget with minimal headaches" and the other half is for the actual work.

I guess Nathan and I are mostly talking about professional game developers (as opposed to part-time/hobbyist, etc). But it's always good to think "why to the pro developers work the way they do" even if you're a 5-person part time indy studio..

I guess Nathan and I are mostly talking about professional game developers (as opposed to part-time/hobbyist, etc). But it's always good to think "why to the pro developers work the way they do" even if you're a 5-person part time indy studio..

That is good to hear, and for me to do that I have to ask these types of questions, right? otherwise how else would I learn the knowledge?

There is always a better composer out there, who will work for less. But when you are a developer with deadline pressures of your own, having to juggle 50 balls of scheduling, art, programmer issues, bugs, management feedback, etc. the last thing you want to have to do is worry about sound/music, or having to deal with a hurt ego if you give criticism and the composer takes it too personally. I'd say that 50% of a composer's fee is "insurance policy that things will be delivered on time and on budget with minimal headaches" and the other half is for the actual work.

I agree very much with this. Thanks for bringing it into perspective. For our development team that is not something I have to worry about as we are not limited on time at this point. When the kickstater goes through ( assuming we make our goal ) we will have a form of a deadline but at this point it is simply a few friends making a game! I appreciate both of your comments though and help.

You probably cannot spend $40,000 and get some of the composers for WoW to work on your game... but shouldnt' you still strive for the best quality you can get in your budget range?

You are speaking as if I am a composer who can create the best. I hope for the best art that I can hope for as well but I know the limitation is by the budget I can afford. If i know that limit that wouldnt it be in my best interest to make whatever I can afford be molded to that limit? Example would be.... if i know I have 0$ and can afford nothing in the terms of such quality but I want to make a game ( this is not the case but using this example ) wouldnt it be in my best interest to try and make a game that plays to the strengths of $0? Instead of trying to aim for AAA graphics I would add 8 bit graphics with a hint of style thus staying within my budget and still creating a feel for the game that works.

The same could be said for the sound. AAA composers is not equal to perfect sound for the project I desire to make. Could it make the game better to have a big name on the music title? That does not mean that I couldn't make the next big person by hiring them to make something that fits my game under a reasonable price, right?

No, I'm speaking to you as someone who can hire someone. I realize you don't create music yourself. Also you keep making poor comparisons. For example casual or chip tune music can be either good or bad. Just as epic, orchestral music can be either good or bad. You seem to be saying that wanting a certain style of music should somehow be cheaper simply because it's that genre/style. I'm disagreeing with that. I'm trying to encourage you to not just settle on who might do a decent job but instead strive to hire the best person you can within your given budget.

This guy that wants to do the job for free might be incredible. He might blow your socks off. Or he might not. That's a risk you're going to have to take. Heck... even hiring someone new for "fair" or "normal" wages is sometimes a risk, it's just different degrees.

Finally, there's something to be said about hiring the best you can find (and they're not always the most expensive). Time is money and most developers were rather pay a bit more for someone they know is going to deliver than waste more time with someone who is a variable. This is why going to EA and such with really cheap rate sheets doesn't work. Those audio directors are so busy that they need to be able to hand off tasks and not worry about them again. Someone just starting out may not have the chops nor the gear to deliver under that kind of stress and THAT is worth something.

Agreed, that is not my project and I am not EA. I am a developer working to make an indie project. If the game got to be as popular as other indie games like Super Meatboy or Fez, maybe that freelance indie music guy could launch his project from that alone... and THAT is worth something as well. So the project can be mutually beneficial.

Sure, you're not EA. Never said you were but I'm sure you want to put out the best product (or project you can), right? That's my point. Also I'm trying to explain to you, at the high level, how rates work and differ. I'm not saying you have to spend thousands on the music for your game (in fact I said you probably wouldn't be able to). But I am trying to explain to you why some composers charge more than others - and it's not simply out of greed.

That's a horrible idea and is completely inappropriate. You're calling this guy out and publicly announcing his rate. I doubt he'd appreciate that if he were to know you were doing so. As such, I've removed the link. This sort of behavior is hardly professional too so I'd caution you against doing it again (both here on GD.net and elsewhere so you don't hurt your reputation in the industry).

While you have that right ( you are a moderator ) would it have been any different if i posted a topic saying "This guy ( post link here ) has a posted rate of $150 per minute, is that a reasonable price?" I doubt you would have modified that post or thought past the idea of saying "Yeah thats good" and left it at that. I am not attacking the guy and very clearly laid out in my argument that it very well could be the fact that I am too ignorant to the subject to know what is considered good or bad. Furthermore, I have seen 0 rules that suggest we should not discuss the rates of other people or companies as it violates some form of "code of conduct". ( note I have read your rules thread and this is all it states )

Then perhaps I'll add some. It's this guy's right to at least know of a thread about him and his music (as well as his rates). If you had consulted him and he was taking part, it would be no bother. But it's generally considered poor form to take information that someone gave you privately in an email and spread it on the internet. This is why many companies (including indie ones) have NDAs. So for the record, if you had posted "This guy ( post link here ) has a posted rate of $150 per minute, is that a reasonable price?" I would have closed the thread, deleted the specific information and requested that you only discuss it in general terms. I went to the guy's website you tried to link and he doesn't post his rates anywhere. This supports my belief that he would rather have this information kept private.

Regardless of how you feel about it, the reality is you were calling someone out and publicly sharing information that I doubt he wants share on the web. That's not a good thing. Feel free to discuss as much as you want in general terms. You'll notice I didn't criticize you at all for this in the beginning. Only when you became specific on a public forum.

Hey guys,

Please remember that the Music and Sound forum is for
discussion, sharing one's work and getting feedback to help you improve.
The Music and Sound forum isn't the place for you to try and get clients. That's what the classifieds section
is for and there's both a paid and hobbyist section which can be used.
So post basically anything audio related as long as it's not you saying
akin to "HEY HIRE ME!!!"

Any posts that are clearly attempts at
getting work will be edited then closed with a nice note from me telling
you to post this in the classifieds section. There will be no warning
as this IS your warning.
There used to be a forum FAQ that detailed some of this but with the
various site migrations and changes, that seems to have vanished.
Hopefully that helps clear up any confusion.

Thanks!

Nate

Post link here: http://www.gamedev.net/forum/19-music-and-sound/

The entire point of a forum, according to my understanding, is to discuss and explore the game development process and in doing so find the answers or enrich your personal knowledge through questions and discussion. I can see your argument but I do not agree with the tone. If you could link to me some articles that suggest "professional" behavior that references what you are discussing that would be great. I would love to further my knowledge on the subject but at this point it seems like you are inserting personal feelings to an otherwise objective topic. It is not my attempt to break any rules or regulations.

So, following your guidelines, how can I get peoples opinions on the rate being quality or not if I can not link to his public work?

You CAN discuss rates and general stuff, no problem! But you wanted to talk about one guy specificially without having him be able to defend himself or even give his approval to share his private info. Most composers keep their rates private. Why? Because if it were public, then someone else could come in and simply undercut him. This is an important lesson to learn - treat what potential business partners/clients tell you privately as private.

Time is money and most developers were rather pay a bit more for someone they know is going to deliver than waste more time with someone who is a variable

I'm going to have to disagree with my good friend Nathan..

How DARE you! :P

I'd say that most professional developers would rather pay significantly more for someone they know is going to deliver on time, on budget with a good attitude. In fact, that's a great deal of the value/worth of the composer.

There is always a better composer out there, who will work for less. But when you are a developer with deadline pressures of your own, having to juggle 50 balls of scheduling, art, programmer issues, bugs, management feedback, etc. the last thing you want to have to do is worry about sound/music, or having to deal with a hurt ego if you give criticism and the composer takes it too personally. I'd say that 50% of a composer's fee is "insurance policy that things will be delivered on time and on budget with minimal headaches" and the other half is for the actual work.

Amen!

No, I'm speaking to you as someone who can hire the best. I realize you don't create music yourself. Also you keep making poor comparisons. For example casual or chip tune music can be either good or bad. Just as epic, orchestral music can be either good or bad. You seem to be saying that wanting a certain style of music should somehow be cheaper simply because it's that genre/style. I'm disagreeing with that.

And I disagree with that. When you obtain a new end sound person, ( or art or programmer or anything for that matter ) they are untested and unskilled. You can not expect to pay them the same rate that you would pay that high end well versed guy. Their skill rates could be the same but because one has clout and the other does not the rate would be less. After the product releases and you feel that you undercut the guy because people say "this soundtrack is EPIC" that would be another thing all together. What I am saying is that I do not need to hire AAA sound artists, rather I need to find somebody who can provide quality work at a reasonable rate. My question was "what is a reasonable rate?" since I am obviously ill prepared to argue in this venue. Somehow that question was misconstrued and it then became about having the ability to hire AAA people. I have 0 need to do that nor will I be doing that.

Sure, you're not EA. Never said you were but I'm sure you want to put out the best product (or project you can), right? That's my point. Also I'm trying to explain to you, at the high level, how rates work and differ. I'm not saying you have to spend thousands on the music for your game (in fact I said you probably wouldn't be able to). But I am trying to explain to you why some composers charge more than others - and it's not simply out of greed.

I get that, really I do. The same is said about artists for their work. If i paid for a project from Leonardo I might pay some serious cash because of name alone. I could also pay some wouldbe Copycat for the exact same work but it wouldnt have the title of being a Leonardo Original. I dont need "name brand" i just need good quality. I am a highly skilled artist but my rate that I charge for work is rather low since I am still new to the business. People would not hire me without any clout and I can not obtain clout without doing low end work first. If i get luck y and land a massive big job at a normal rate thats good on me but I certainly dont expect that right from the starting point. It would be illogical to assume such; which is my point. Nevertheless, I understand your point.

Then perhaps I'll add some. It's this guy's right to at least know of a thread about him and his music (as well as his rates). If you had consulted him and he was taking part, it would be no bother. But it's generally considered poor form to take information that someone gave you privately in an email and spread it on the internet. This is why many companies (including indie ones) have NDAs.

That seems vaulgy misleading. To think that I "should" know about every post about me that is online is silly and ludicrous. I am the owner of a rather large gaming community and have several websites dedicated to "Riuthamus is the devil" forum posts. I know they exist and it doesn't change how I operate business, nor does it change the amount of business that I pull in either. With that stated I realize you do not want this place to be a cesspool of bashing of other artists/composers and that is your goal in the type of moderation you are doing now. I am okay with that but the way you came at me made it seem like I was breaking some very well known rule and that i should be ashamed. I know that not every place on the internet runs things as I do and I would never try to operate outside of the rules and regulations of this place as it has been more than helpful to me and my friends. So allow me to apologize if i ended up offending or insulting anybody.

You CAN discuss rates and general stuff, no problem! But you wanted to talk about one guy specificially without having him be able to defend himself or even give his approval of his work. Most composers keep their rates private. Why? Because if it were public, then someone else could come in and simply undercut him. This is an important lesson to learn - treat what potential business partners/clients tell you privately as private.

That is good information, but certainly not common logic. Perhaps for somebody who is well versed in the business practices of normal day to day business. I am a very blunt person and hide nothing ( if you dont believe me ask anybody who knows me ) so I find it odd some times when I just speak whatever is on my mind. There is a filter and I certainly know when to be political but I hardly feel the internet is the place for that. learn something new every day though! ;)

Most composers keep their rates private. Why? Because if it were public, then someone else could come in and simply undercut him. This is an important lesson to learn - treat what potential business partners/clients tell you privately as private.

I sense that most composers do keep their rates private, and you do raise a valid point about being undercut if it's made public. On the other hand, however, speaking as someone desperate for a paid position, I know that many indie composers charge quite a lot, so how are game developers supposed to find someone they know is affordable?

Also, the rates are so private that honestly, I don't know if one reason I'm not being considered for paid work is because I made my rate too low or not.

I sense that most composers do keep their rates private, and you do raise a valid point about being undercut if it's made public.

It's not purely about getting undercut - most freelancers have a little bit of flexibility in their rates, and it's expected that you will contact them to negotiate a rate for your particular project. If I freelance for a friend, a charitable organisation, or a cash strapped indie, I might charge a much lower rate than when I freelance for a 3rd party or a corporation. If that lower rate becomes public knowledge, I am suddenly forced to justify my regular rates to new clients.

And as one becomes more established, and decides to raise one's rates commensurately, it's much easier if a lower rate isn't plastered all over the internet...

On the other hand, however, speaking as someone desperate for a paid position, I know that many indie composers charge quite a lot, so how are game developers supposed to find someone they know is affordable?

It's fine to advertise as 'affordable'. Advertising your rates isn't necessarily a bad thing either, though I would caution that you make sure you have a way to expunge them from the internet afterwards.

I sense that most composers do keep their rates private, and you do raise a valid point about being undercut if it's made public.

It's not purely about getting undercut - most freelancers have a little bit of flexibility in their rates, and it's expected that you will contact them to negotiate a rate for your particular project. If I freelance for a friend, a charitable organisation, or a cash strapped indie, I might charge a much lower rate than when I freelance for a 3rd party or a corporation. If that lower rate becomes public knowledge, I am suddenly forced to justify my regular rates to new clients.

And as one becomes more established, and decides to raise one's rates commensurately, it's much easier if a lower rate isn't plastered all over the internet...

>>On the other hand, however, speaking as someone desperate for a paid position, I know that many indie composers charge quite a lot, so how are game developers supposed to find someone they know is affordable?

It's fine to advertise as 'affordable'. Advertising your rates isn't necessarily a bad thing either, though I would caution that you make sure you have a way to expunge them from the internet afterwards.

Understood and agreed. Such an explanation is well appreciated. Understand my post was not made out of malicious intent; rather it was generated from ignorant exploration.

Understood and agreed. Such an explanation is well appreciated.Understand my post was not made out of malicious intent; rather it wasgenerated from ignorant exploration.

Which is why I've gone out of my way to explain to you why it's not appropriate on both this forum as well as in the professional realm.

Understood and agreed. Such an explanation is well appreciated.Understand my post was not made out of malicious intent; rather it wasgenerated from ignorant exploration.

Which is why I've gone out of my way to explain to you why it's not appropriate on both this forum as well as in the professional realm.

True, but the delivery of that seemed... harsher than needed. Perhaps the internet ( being void of tone ) has struck again.