as WoW is the longest running MMO to date

The Realm Online is the longest running.

I've played MMORPGs since Everquest I and I must say that I had lot of fun. But I think, that a MMORPG is already bad design by definition. The problem is quite simple:

When playing a RPG, the player want to be the hero, saving the world of commons while experiencing unique adventures.

The barrier are
1. The player want to be THE unique hero,
2. The player want to live through adventures experiencing unique stories,

Storytelling and being the unique hero is possible to some degree in a single player or small multiplayer game, but a massive multiplayer game is the anti-pattern to this design.

After more than a decade of MMORPGs available you can see different approaches.
1. WoW:
They stay true to the RPG thought, trying to deliver lot of customization features (being unique) and story (in form of content).
=> This lead to the content-racing, even blizzard will fail to deliver more interesting content at some point here.

2. GW I (never played two):
They deliver a small coop-mutliplayer RPG experience, added PvP and a feeling of RTS (you feel like a soldier executing unique missions to fight your war in a greater war scenario).
=> This is not only one of the most cleverly business models, but although delivers a good single player experience and a RTS feeling.

3. Ultima Online (though never played it):
Unique in the sense of having a very high degree of building and crafting.
=> Player want to be creative and giving the players the ability to create something world changing is a great idea (->minecraft), though UO have some really hard issues with it.


To be honest, WoW is leading the MMORPG into the wrong direction and most other MMORPGs (take an existing brand like StarWars, Lord of Rings and put WoW on top of it) try to herd after them, eventuallly leading down the cliff. The design is a content pyramid scheme and will eventually collaps with a lot of people being frustrated and never touching a MMORPG again.

I personally like the single player aspect of GW and I think that more MMORPGs should go MMORTS. There's nothing wrong about being a single soldier in an massive conflict (all the CoD like games proof this) , being the hero for only a single session. RTS approach is screaming for MMO, but the industry is cautious about MMO+RTS, most likely seeing only a literal implementation of the RTS genre instead of integrating RPG parts into a weakened RTS implementation.

And finally the creative aspect of content creation is a very important factor, though it is in conflict with modern AAA design and art.

And finally the creative aspect of content creation is a very important factor, though it is in conflict with modern AAA design and art.

Realm of The Mad God took an interesting approach to this by having relatively simple content and then providing a simple and restricted method by which players could contribute. I think player-generated content is an area worthy of further investigation -- and RoTMG is a good (albeit simple) example of it being done right.

It's also a good example of different game-play -- it's more of a bullet-hell shooter than a traditional RPG.

[quote name='MrJoshL' timestamp='1354061897' post='5004754']
as WoW is the longest running MMO to date

Not even close. Off the top of my head Ultima Online, EverQuest, Age of Conan, and RuneScape have all been running for at least a few years longer than World of Warcraft.
[/quote]Age of Conan is only 4 years old. WOW is 8. (Now if only we could get low fantasy / Conan in a Skyrim like game...)

You guys are only counting graphical MMORPGs. MMO type gameplay has been around since people had computers to play them on. An MMO is just a graphical MUD with a bigger playerbase. Even Everquest started as a near clone of DikuMud.

Sure, that's true -- but once again, a MUD doesn't really benefit from being massively multi-player either -- in most cases an instanced server with anywhere up to about 64 players would be just as effective, and a smaller number of players might help to reduce some of the common problems that larger crowds can introduce.

An MMO is just a graphical MUD with a bigger playerbase.

Most early MMOs has their roots in MUDs (Meridian59, Camlelot, EQ ?), what is quite interesting is, that MUDs had often world builders (limited to certain players/admins), a way to alter the world dynamically. This was almost completely lost from the transition from MUD to MMORPG.

When I said WoW is the longest running MMO, I was saying that it is the longest running while maintaining a solid playerbase and being somewhat mainstream.

That's because MMOs are designed like virtual theme parks. Quest lines are like a series of rides.

MMORPG is already bad design by definition [...] The player want to be THE unique hero,
[...]
To be honest, WoW is leading the MMORPG into the wrong direction and most other MMORPGs follow

So true -- at least from my point of view. However, the massive success that these games have proves otherwise. Well, admittedly Star Wars and LOTRO are not truly blockbusters (despite their huge existing fanbases, which should guarantee a license to print money!), but I think that's because of the implementations that lack "design love".

I've played LOTRO (at the time of Shadows of Angmar) myself and found it kind of entertaining for a week. However, overall, it was just badly designed in a purposely stupid, annoying manner. Plus, nothing interesting to be done after playing for a week, and nothing to be done at all (except raiding, which is really 90% waiting) after two weeks.

I remember reading a review when Rift came out (was it Rift? I think so...), of which the bottom line was that it's such a great game because after selecting the first quest NPC, you never even have to think any more. A big arrow shows you where you have to click next to "win".

All in all, my impression is that the vast majority of people doesn't really have too much interest in rich RPG and in fact enjoys a theme-park style of game, and even "grinding" (even while complaining, they enjoy it). I couldn't explain otherwise why such games are so massively successful.

When I said WoW is the longest running MMO, I was saying that it is the longest running while maintaining a solid playerbase and being somewhat mainstream.

Sorry again. NationStates opened 2 years earlier and has a solid playerbase and been mainstream since it opened. ;)

WoW is the most popular MMO, but certainly not the longest running mainstream one.

BTW, I was mistaken before. It's not The Realm Online, but Furcadia which claims to be the longest continuous MMO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furcadia

@OP
I agree with you. The classic MMORPG, Ultima Online, was all about how the players shaped their own world and interacted with others.
You could be anything you want, you had a wide range of skills to develop and you could build your own house to live in this world. PvP was also available, but not so mandatory.
Today, UO is very different and lost great part of that unique experience. New MMORPGs are just about how you should grind to a maximum level (which is stupid) and battle other players just to show off. I don't see the same motivation of the old players in the new ones... which IMO is very sad and very bad for the genre.

There is a cool interview with the designer of the Ultima RPG series. He tells a very interesting story at 18:30 I guess