Look at the election maps for the recent presidential election, see who voted Romney and who voted Obama. The blue dots are almost a picture-perfect portrait of the urban areas. The red dots, conversely, outline the rural. The producers. This election, more than any election I have witnessed in the context of this place, struck fear into the hearts of the producers of this country.

What a ridiculous premise.

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.

That's not at all the argument I was making.

[quote name='The_Neverending_Loop' timestamp='1354132570' post='5005050']
Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.

That's not at all the argument I was making.
[/quote]

Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.
...
Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

It's ineffective to assume in an argument that the way it works in New York has much to do with how things work anywhere else. Also, in discussions like these people who say "welfare" (especially in regards to cutting it/making it more difficult to get) tend to mean all government transfers to working-age adults. This includes what the word "welfare" actually refers to (cash transfers, housing subsidies, etc.) and also things like WIC/SNAP (food stamps) or Medicaid. I've yet to see a discussion where that distinction mattered to the argument being made by either party, but maybe this is the one.

And you don't need to be employed to get welfare, depending on where you live and other circumstances of your life.

I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.
...
You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.

Again, depending on where you live. But even in places where it's possible to get government cash benefits without working, surely there's a point where what's being asked of the applicant is unreasonable. Securing welfare benefits is already (again, depending on where you live and other circumstances) quite a bit more than "a little bit hard", not to mention invasive and often dehumanizing. It's not like you walk into a building and then twenty minutes later leave with a check. Do you have a particular point in mind when it's sufficiently difficult that an applicant has earned the benefits?

My preferred argument against "clamping down" on government benefit fraud is that it adds to the cost of those programs while helping no additional people. How much of a premium would you be willing to pay on each dollar of government benefits paid to an honest recipient to deny a dishonest applicant?

[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.

[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354040166' post='5004594']
[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.
[/quote]

ho hum, this must be the internet.

[quote name='Bregma' timestamp='1354040166' post='5004594']
[quote name='Oberon_Command' timestamp='1354038332' post='5004584']
From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).[/quote]That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.
[hr]
You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.
[/quote]
This could be said of pretty much any government, though. USA just happens to omnipresent and thus more noticeable. It's the same system basically everywhere in the world, carefully engineered through years of government trial and error to keep citizens under control through endless "debates" and "elections", working hard to make it look as if they are actually making a difference when everything is really decided for them. Yeah, I'm pessimistic. Sorry.

[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1354047783' post='5004654']
...in a few years, you'll be owned by communist China anyway.

Just who do you think owns the debt this topic was originally about?[/quote]That discussion comes a decade or two too late, though. You've been at war with China since at least the 1980s without realizing, and China has won. Unluckily, the same is true for "us" (Europe). I really wish I could point my finger at you and laugh, but it is exactly the same here.
The takeover and extinction has begun, and there is hardly a way to stop it now. In a few years, there will remain hardly any healthy young adults. In a few decades, there will remain none.

10 years ago, hardly anyone here had ever seen a real Chinese (other than the "Chinese" at the Chinese restaurant somewhere downtown, in a land far far away). Now, there is a couple or two living in nearly every street in town. The invaders are in your place, they hold key positions, and they're preparing the takeover. And, governments are only too happy to play into their hands (pushing tax money to China subsidizing solar energy in a country that doesn't have sun, building maglevs "for free" in faraway countries from tax funds, bending immigration laws to fill academic positions and executive positions in the industry, etc.).

The Chinese are diligent, and they have been working hard on getting ownership on anything they could grasp, reducing fertility, and increasing the incidence of obesity and diabetes for three decades. You don't seriously believe that decades of phtalates, lead, mercury, and other stealthy poisons in exported baby toys are purely accidential, do you? You don't assume that exporting high-arsenic high-glucose rice and keeping/importing (e.g. from India) the low-arsenic-low-glucose one for one's self is an incident? You don't believe that the massive increase (during the last decade) of corn starch addition to nearly every food that you can buy in a supermarket was a coincidence?

You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

Far-right for us(Americans) is libertarianism...and last time I looked, we were anything but that. (IMHO, what we're currently doing mirrors our disastrous Progressive Era)

American Progressive:
Progressives want government to have a great deal of power over the economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in today's world. Progressives tend to distrust the free market, support high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.