Yeah I agree, new ideas need to push boundaries, but I would still fail to see how a programmer is not capable of pushing boundaries also, especially if he is already taught not to take his latent knowledge into account.

I'm not suggesting that a programmer is incapable of pushing boundaries, I was trying to say that whether they can push boundaries or not is unrelated to whether they can program or not. As a designer, they can either "think outside the box" or they can't. Whether they can program or not is entirely seperate.

On the question of pushing boundaries with say, head capture technology; are you making the assumption that it was a bright spark with little programming knowledge who came up with the idea? Or was it a highly technical person who came up with it? I know who I would put my bet on.

I was using motion capture to illustrate the point since it seemed quite universal in my mind. Most people would understand that motion capture wasn't available at all years ago, and now it's getting to be more commonplace. Someone had to come up with the idea, rather than thinking about the fact that keyboard/mouse was what worked.

It was simply to illustrate the point that to create you shouldn't be limited by foreknowledge.

This still does not solve the issue of where a Game Designer fits in with a team. Like I said before, I fail to see how a pure Game Designer is capable of coming up with new ideas that a programmer/designer is not capable of. It seems like a straw man argument to say that a Game Designer can push boundaries and a programmer/designer cannot; it is an assumption based on opinion.

Some teams don't need a dedicated game designer, I would hazard a guess and say almost all small indie teams do not have one. A programmer designer is perfectly capable of coming up with a great game. This isn't because he's a programmer, it would be because he's a great designer, he just happens to also know how to program.

If you have a good programmer, and a good programmer/designer, you can make a good game.
If you have a good programmer, and a great designer, you can make a great game.

Of course, the great designer needs to actually be 'Great' in order for the distinction to work. Whether he can provide value in his role purely as a designer. This depends a lot on the team; what roles you have, what roles you need to fill, and so forth.

A good designer should add value to the team. You have to consider whether this value is worth it, the same as with any prospective member of the team.

If you have a team of 3 programmers making your game, they're working easily to deadlines, meeting quality requirements, and a 4th programmer applies. You don't automatically hire him because he's a programmer and he can code. You have to question if his coding is going to be worth having a 4th programmer around.

If this 4th programmer can prove that he can halve your development time, while decreasing workload, and exceeding the quality you're looking for, then it makes it much more appealing because he's proven his worth.

Proving your worth as a designer is an abstract thing, and it's what I'm really interested in. How do you prove that you're a great designer? Whether a team needs a designer is dependant on the team. But you need to showcase your ability so that they can see how good you are, the same as with any role.

If you have a team of 3 programmers making your game, they're working easily to deadlines, meeting quality requirements, and a 4th programmer applies. You don't automatically hire him because he's a programmer and he can code. You have to question if his coding is going to be worth having a 4th programmer around.

Companies are generally trying to improve the growth of their company. If they are meeting targets easily, they will usually take on extra work so they are always at that tipping point of not being overworked and yet not meeting targets too comfortably.

A pure designer would indeed increase the quality of their work, but it may not necessarily increase their output of work which tends to be the main goal.

The idea of having a guy who can design but can't be drafted in to code when things get tight, is not something I can imagine many companies going for. That persons worth is tied exclusively to their ability to design, they have nothing else to offer.

On the subject of proving your worth, you also have to factor in that part of proving your worth is proving why you are better to have than someone else. You have to beat the competition. And with all things considered, a guy who can code and design is really going to be in with a better shot than someone who can only design.

Proving your worth generally means showing a portfolio of your past work. I would suggest getting a portfolio together of past designs you've worked on that have been successfully built by someone and thus proving your ability to design. The only other way would be to get a degree in Game Design, which would most likely involve learning to code anyway.

If you have no designs that have been built by someone, then I would suggest you either find someone who will or you are forced to learn to program a game and build it yourself.

Proving your worth as a designer is an abstract thing, and it's what I'm really interested in. How do you prove that you're a great designer? Whether a team needs a designer is dependant on the team. But you need to showcase your ability so that they can see how good you are, the same as with any role.

In theory yes, in practice no. You are assuming that designer is the same kind of team member as everyone else, he is not. He is special. No one is starting a project and think OK I need 2 programmers, 3 artists and 1 designer. You start a project and you already have a game at least partially designed, it is the management job to design the core of the game, not hired disigner's. No one put down the money and say "OK, can you think of a game we can make"? It's the other way round, people first had their own ideal game designed and then start a team to make it.
Also the designer is almost always the project manager as well. This means the designer has to be the highest or one of the highest rank people in the team. You don't hire people for such position, you put yourself in that position...
Also there is no such thing as sole dedicated game designer that invent the game alone. In practice it is always a team effort to design a game (of course most of the people contribute minimum, still they do, you even take into account what the artist is good at making when deciding on the game, and programmers are almost impossible to be excuded from game design process in practice due to technical reasons).

I think the only way to be a dedicated designer (well, maybe not dedicated, that's impossible, let's say someone who is not doing any code not art, you still have to take on the project manager's role) is to start your own project and hire people to it.

You cannot prove your worth as a designer without having produced a product. Just like programmers or artists. Yet as a designer how can you prove your worth if you need to prove it before anyone hires you, but you can't prove it because no one will hire you?

The answer is to do something else in games, like programming or art, and then make suggestions to your project lead and other members, and then they say hey, you have a great idea, assuming you actually do, and then the next suggestion you make gets more weight. And you have to keep pushing that cycle till you can get a quality portfolio of stuff you helped design, and then you can get a lead design job.

Alternatively you can make games in simple formats to showcase design talent. Modding, flash games, 2d games, board games and so forth.

So if your question is how you can prove design skills without any programming or art skills, the answer is that you really can't. And there is no such thing as a freelance game designer either.

Although you could hire people with your own money. Then they are employees and will do what you say so long as you pay their salary.

Well one thing is for sure: arguing about it on a forum is not going to make you a great designer, nor will convince any programmer to auto classify himself as "good programmer without ideas" and put his skills in your hands.

Most people in the indie community are in it because of what it says on the can: indie.
I have an indie studio because I want to make the game I WANT, and so are the people in my team. The members bring in their productive skills and, in change, they have the possibility to shape how the entire thing comes up.
If I had to imagine my day being something in the lines of: "ok let's implement what my GREAT game designer tells me to implement" well, I'd rather go code for a bank and bring home a big fat cheque at the end of the month.

Try to be realistic.. you won't be able to convince anybody they "need you". If you want to make computer games, try to understand you are talking about software. To create software you need code. Nobody is forcing you but that's what it boils down to. Unless you're VERY rich it is VERY unlikely you'll convince any good programmer to work for you on an idea. Use all the energy you have to learn some simple game making tool and start coming out with prototypes, this will move your credibility up, and it will expand your knowledge about computer game developing.
I am not a 3D artist, but I wanted to do my own driving game.. I started to dedicate 1-2 hours of my day to learning 3D modelling, I didn't do any masterpiece model, but I got my game up and running and available online..that gave me the possibility to be exposed to a lot of great 3D artist that at that point felt confident to join the project.

So to answer your question.. how to start a team? Start by setting the example, and people will follow.

PyroDragon, have you tried doing any research into what is taught in a Game Design degree course?

I would imagine, what ever they teach on those courses is pretty much what you should be doing also.

Is there a reason you are not doing a degree in Game Design? I would imagine that is the obvious solution to your problem.

PyroDragon, have you tried doing any research into what is taught in a Game Design degree course?

I would imagine, what ever they teach on those courses is pretty much what you should be doing also.

Is there a reason you are not doing a degree in Game Design? I would imagine that is the obvious solution to your problem.

The primary reasons are that I work full time, and I'm doing a course in Game Development and programming.

The primary reasons are that I work full time, and I'm doing a course in Game Development and programming.

So what is holding you back from creating a game with your own designs?

Well, from what i know, Level Designer and Game Designer are 2 different roles, especially for triple-A titles. Mods, maps and prototypes are the best stuff to show LD's capability. As for "pure" designer like GD, I do believe that shipped projects you previously worked on can prove your value.
Sometimes people tend to promote their own employees instead of hiring a game designer from the outside. Things might be a lot different for MMO and casual games.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Level design is a subset of game design and the same skills apply, on large projects you tend to have a lead designer who is responsible for keeping things coherent and then a group of people responsible for various aspects of the game, none of these aspects are more pure than the others though. (This is no different from how programming and art are structured on most large teams, once you have a group of people working together companies tend to put someone in charge of that group to ensure that everyone is pulling in the same direction), For indie teams you rarely have multiple people in one role(usually you have one person in multiple roles instead) so things won't be broken down as far and people don't tend to specialize as heavily.

[quote name='PyroDragn' timestamp='1335278435' post='4934453']
The primary reasons are that I work full time, and I'm doing a course in Game Development and programming.

So what is holding you back from creating a game with your own designs?
[/quote]

Scale and ability at the moment. I am working on one of my own game designs (prototyping at the moment). A lot of the ideas I don't have the capability of implementing by myself at the moment. This wasn't a question of "what should I do?" it was about how can a game designer showcase his game design ability.

I can still do some other things which don't rely on having a programming basis. If I hadn't asked the question then I wouldn't have been told to try designing table-top games, or been suggested that I should try blogging on game design theory.

I want to improve everything that I can in every way that I can. This is a means to that end.