I have the samsung series 7 slate, and it's gorgeous. Win8, too, is gorgeous (but even win7 was fine on it, for the .. 2 hours i ran it ). I couldn't care less about the ipad anymore after having a full desktop pc in my hands. Put it into the dock, and voilà, gigabit network, >fullhd screen, expensive studio audio monitors, keyboard, mouse, other hw.. visual studio, ableton live, google chrome, internet explorer, office, drivers and apps for all kind of hw..

and on the go.. plug in a usb stick and access it's data when a friend wants to give you something. or even plug in an ipad to sync it

yes, my tablet replaced my desktop. but not, because i made steps backwards. because the tablet moved forward.

oh, and, yes. win8 + windows phone 7 = great couple. samsung omnia 7 originally, now nokia lumia 800. pure geek porn. that oled, that glass.. pure love.


enjoy your ipad as a win pc that doesn't deliver. if it's good enough for you, that's great. i'll enjoy the core i5, the 4gb ram, the possibility to run all apps that i'm used to since 15years, and to actually have a new and modern designed os. which ios really isn't anymore. leather skinned calendar? wtf..

Davepermen,

I haven't try Windows 8 so I cannot comment on it. The thing is I already tried Windows 7 tablet, and I just don't like it. There is a reason why tablets never fly until Apple came with ipad. In a world of utopia, it would be nice to have something you mentioned. The sad part is, reality says differently.

First is of course, battery life. You yourself mentioned, 2 hours. I want something that I only need to charge at night and use it all day without having to carry a power supply around ( ala netbook). I also want something I can quickly use without having to whip out a pen (I used to have Asus Win Mobile 6.1 phone, and also Garmin Asus Android 2.1 phone, yeah, I know the differences). Probably the reason why tablet only fly starting with ipad. Besides, if I need to use something that run WIndows and have to be attached to power supply most of the time, I already have my desktop. And laptop. And netbook :-)

Microsoft might be doing something right with Win 8. Keyword is 'might'. Microsoft, despite their size and cash, failed to put Zune, Bing, and some phone for kid I forgot what name, and many other software / hardware that failed / never take off, where they belong. But I understand, they also come up foward with XBox.

I'm just afraid what MIcrosoft come up next is the playbook. Too little too late. I am avid Microsoft supporter, having used it since the early DOS. But things that doesn't work out, just doesn't work out.

The thing with ipad is the ecosystem. long enough, supported enough, and many more. Maybe I'll look around and give a win 8 tablet a try first.

personally, I really like asus ee ep 121. sadly, battery is around 2 - 3 hours. heavy. the pen is not graphic tablet quality. (not even genius quality). like i said, i already tried a lot of tablet with win 7 using the pen, and it just doesn't work for me, personally (Toshiba models). it's just like a half assed everything. heavy, short battery life, clumsy gui, etc.

Maybe win 8 tablet is going to be a good tablet, but like i said in my earlier post, ipad already winning in the app category. some developers develop just for ipad. work just for ipad. there even this motion controller or something for Maya using ipad. oh well.

win 8 tablet will either be the next x-box or the next zune. or the next phone for kid i forgot what name.

The battery life of the iPad is highly dependant on the apps it is running. I've tested apps that could drain from full in just a few hours, while others can last the better part of a work day. Don't get trapped in the idea of confusing OS and hardware.

Davepermen,

I haven't try Windows 8 so I cannot comment on it. The thing is I already tried Windows 7 tablet, and I just don't like it. There is a reason why tablets never fly until Apple came with ipad. In a world of utopia, it would be nice to have something you mentioned. The sad part is, reality says differently.

First is of course, battery life. You yourself mentioned, 2 hours. I want something that I only need to charge at night and use it all day without having to carry a power supply around ( ala netbook). I also want something I can quickly use without having to whip out a pen (I used to have Asus Win Mobile 6.1 phone, and also Garmin Asus Android 2.1 phone, yeah, I know the differences). Probably the reason why tablet only fly starting with ipad. Besides, if I need to use something that run WIndows and have to be attached to power supply most of the time, I already have my desktop. And laptop. And netbook :-)

Microsoft might be doing something right with Win 8. Keyword is 'might'. Microsoft, despite their size and cash, failed to put Zune, Bing, and some phone for kid I forgot what name, and many other software / hardware that failed / never take off, where they belong. But I understand, they also come up foward with XBox.

I'm just afraid what MIcrosoft come up next is the playbook. Too little too late. I am avid Microsoft supporter, having used it since the early DOS. But things that doesn't work out, just doesn't work out.

The thing with ipad is the ecosystem. long enough, supported enough, and many more. Maybe I'll look around and give a win 8 tablet a try first.

personally, I really like asus ee ep 121. sadly, battery is around 2 - 3 hours. heavy. the pen is not graphic tablet quality. (not even genius quality). like i said, i already tried a lot of tablet with win 7 using the pen, and it just doesn't work for me, personally (Toshiba models). it's just like a half assed everything. heavy, short battery life, clumsy gui, etc.

Maybe win 8 tablet is going to be a good tablet, but like i said in my earlier post, ipad already winning in the app category. some developers develop just for ipad. work just for ipad. there even this motion controller or something for Maya using ipad. oh well.

win 8 tablet will either be the next x-box or the next zune. or the next phone for kid i forgot what name.

the two hours i ran it where the two hours before i installed win8 on it, not because of batterylife that is, as long as it's a secondary device, enough for more than one day of usage. but well, it's running beta software, and is on a core i5 which is not comparable with an ipad but a macbook or similar. but beta software is never that batterysaving.

i'm using laptops since years with 6 - 8 hours batterylife. together with standby instead of shutdown they're available for days.

the rest of your post is just pessimistic i don't know what to say so i just say it won't fly kinda ranting, so i won't comment. win8 is great, so was zune, so is windows phone 7. that does not per se define success. but then again, it's windows. it'll be a success no matter what. because even vista and millenium where successes. no matter what media said.

To be fair, Vista and ME were successes because it was bundled with the machine not because people were waiting in line to buy the OS. Like say, Windows 95. Now that was a success.

Also, I think the industry is moving toward [Your Tablet OS] is the new PC. Google, Apple, and Microsoft are all making their OSes run on phones, tablets, and PCs. Code once, install anywhere(?).

There is something to be said about autonomous devices - they have a hard limit and it'll be reached considerably sooner than equivalent Moore Law limits.

Autonomous devices work on batteries. Capacity of energy that can be stored in them is determined by efficiency, but ultimately energy density.

Or put differently, a device that weighs 1kg/2lb. has upper limit on amount of juice it can provide. More powerful components will drain the battery faster.

Microsoft's initial success was enabled by Moore's Law. Instead of wasting time optimizing and carefully crafting Windows, they simply waited for more power to become available. For 20 or even more years, this strategy made Microsoft what it is today.

Batteries for mobile devices are fairly close to limits. Energy density of Li-based batter is only ~5 times lower than that of TNT and only ~50 times lower than that of Gasoline.

Long term impact of this means: At same weight, mobile devices may only gain 50 times more processing power at same device life. Or only 5 times more power at 10 times longer life. Limits here are not determined by technology but basic physics. Even if fuel cells are made into batteries, there simply isn't more energy in the fuel of that weight. Same as thermodynamics - limits of space flight are determined by weight of fuel and there is currently no way around it, short of breaking laws of physics.


Solutions to these problems will come from increasingly specialized chipsets (dedicated video/audio codec components, for example). But even for those, there is a limit. Second limit comes from communication (wifi, GPS). These require a certain drain and for active use they impose some really harsh limits on battery life.

---

IMHO, autonomous functionality enabled by tablets/phones/etc will reach limits fast, the rest will be increasingly offset into "the cloud", similar to how Siri does it.

One thing I'm wary about MS is the footprint of their installation. Apparently, the mobile platform is on the order of 3GB (quite likely wrong information at this point). While passive storage itself is not an issue, it does show certain degree of inefficiency, compared to iOS - but this is all guessing game at this point.


But cordless devices do have some pretty serious limits which cannot be solved through better technology, barring some breakthrough in computational efficiency, increasing the weight of devices or running them plugged in.

Another currently non-viable solution is wireless energy transfer (the Tesla thingy).

To be fair, Vista and ME were successes because it was bundled with the machine not because people were waiting in line to buy the OS.

Well, his point still stands. People still go out and buy machines running Windows - that they don't buy the OS on its own is irrelevant, as obviously they don't do that for Ipads either. Sure, maybe some people buy a Windows computer just because it's the default offered to them - but that argument can be said for people buying Ipads at the moment. (Although yes true, MS have to fight against that problem, in the tablet space - but I think the point is that whether Windows 8 works on tablets or not, it has the advantage that it will be a popular mainstream platform anyway, simple because of the amazing success of Windows as a whole.)

Also, I think the industry is moving toward [Your Tablet OS] is the new PC. Google, Apple, and Microsoft are all making their OSes run on phones, tablets, and PCs. Code once, install anywhere(?).[/quote]Although note that Microsoft are the only ones doing this - the same OS covering tablet/laptop/desktop PCs. Where as Apple and Google have the common platform being tablets and smartphones. I don't think there's a right answer (personally I'd say there's room for both - it makes sense for 10" tablets to be more like netbooks and laptops; where as a 5" tablet is no different to a 5" phone, except that one has a built in phone).

Google's desktop/laptop OS was presumably Chrome, but that doesn't seem to be getting any significant success?

I'm not sure what you mean by "is the new PC"? Tablets will be personal computers for many, just as smartphones already have done that for years too. So in that sense, the industry isn't just moving towards that, we're already there thanks to Nokia etc. And of course, the companies involved will always want their platforms on as many devices as possible, large or small, as they've been trying for years.

Microsoft's initial success was enabled by Moore's Law. Instead of wasting time optimizing and carefully crafting Windows, they simply waited for more power to become available. For 20 or even more years, this strategy made Microsoft what it is today.

I disagree that Microsoft haven't spent optimising their algorithms - rather, you mean that they haven't tried to use old-school hacky tricks to get it working on ancient hardware. And that's what everyone does (including for OS X and Linux, as well as just about all software). I mean let's look at game development - it's bad practice these days to write it entirely in assembly to squeeze out every last drop of performance, and optimisation is better done through efficient algorithms.

You are right that this is what helped software companies, and the "free lunch" in terms of increasingly faster single cores seems to be pretty much over.

Batteries for mobile devices are fairly close to limits. Energy density of Li-based batter is only ~5 times lower than that of TNT and only ~50 times lower than that of Gasoline.

Long term impact of this means: At same weight, mobile devices may only gain 50 times more processing power at same device life. Or only 5 times more power at 10 times longer life. Limits here are not determined by technology but basic physics. Even if fuel cells are made into batteries, there simply isn't more energy in the fuel of that weight. Same as thermodynamics - limits of space flight are determined by weight of fuel and there is currently no way around it, short of breaking laws of physics.[/quote]That's an interesting point. One of the common ideas about future computing is that eventually, computers will tend towards the size of handheld mobile devices, perhaps meaning that the future "computer" will simply be your smartphone that you take everywhere and dock with larger screens/keyboards when required.

But if the computing power is constrained to have useful battery life, that would be an argument against that (unless the same device can switch between modes of performance).

One thing I'm wary about MS is the footprint of their installation. Apparently, the mobile platform is on the order of 3GB (quite likely wrong information at this point). While passive storage itself is not an issue, it does show certain degree of inefficiency, compared to iOS - but this is all guessing game at this point.[/quote]It doesn't imply inefficiency, it's hardly a fair comparison - Windows 8 is a full blown operating system. Even if you want to say you personally have no need for that, that doesn't mean it's inefficient. A better comparison for comparing footprints would be Windows Phone. Similarly Android does fine, because it's a phone OS. My Symbian smartphone has a much smaller footprint than my Windows 7 desktop, but that doesn't make the latter inefficient.

I haven't try Windows 8 so I cannot comment on it.

I have, and it's looking great.

The thing is I already tried Windows 7 tablet, and I just don't like it. There is a reason why tablets never fly until Apple came with ipad.[/quote]The world is not "Windows and Apple". Touchscreen mobile devices (what we now call tablets, but also existed previously as smartphones, media players etc) existed and were massively mainstream years before. Yes, MS were hopeless at it, but we had it for years in the form of Nokia/Symbian, Blackberry, Android, as well as Apple. (Indeed, even for the larger tablets we now see, Archos in fact released Android tablets shortly *before* the first Ipad.) So let's drop the Apple First myth.

Also note that MS were having problems not in providing a mobile OS (which they have managed to do - sure it's never been the most successful thing, but it still counts - indeed, Windows Mobile was outselling Iphones for some time). The problem they've had is trying to get the same platform working on desktops, laptops and tablets. Perhaps a valid answer is to say that that's flawed from the start. But if Windows 8 has any reasonable success on tablets, they will have pulled off something that no one has yet managed.

Windows 7 was never designed for touchscreen portable use, rather it was a desktop/laptop OS with optional touchscreen use when appropriate. Judging Windows 8 by it isn't fair at all. I'd rather trust the opinion of [color=#284b72]davepermen who has used it, than you who hasn't.

As for never flying until Ipad - did Windows 8 copy some UI ideas? Maybe. But then, we should also note how Apple copy from others too that came before then. It's how technology works. And Windows 8 introduces new ideas too, which others may copy from.

I also want something I can quickly use without having to whip out a pen (I used to have Asus Win Mobile 6.1 phone, and also Garmin Asus Android 2.1 phone, yeah, I know the differences).[/quote]You don't need to use a pen. In fact, you didn't on Windows 7 devices, but Windows 8 is optimised for use without one anyway. (I have a pen on my Nokia 5800 - it's not that I have to use it, rather that many touchscreens *can't* use it. I have a choice. I use touch most the time, but it's useful if say I don't want to smear food over my screen, or it's cold and I'm wearing gloves.)

Besides, if I need to use something that run WIndows and have to be attached to power supply most of the time, I already have my desktop. And laptop. And netbook :-)[/quote]Same reason I don't need an Ipad. That's an argument against tablets in general. If I do want a tablet, and I wanted Windows, of course I'd want them in the same device.

Microsoft, despite their size and cash, failed to put Zune, Bing, and some phone for kid I forgot what name, and many other software / hardware that failed / never take off, where they belong. [/quote]These were not failures. For some reason, MS get labelled a "failure" because they don't end up being number 1, but Apple get branded "runaway success" even when it just has a few % market share. And Apple have just as much cash, if not more, so if that matters, why isn't OS X number 1? Why isn't Iphone number 1? Are these therefore failures?

Apple's Iphone was hailed as a success, even when Windows Mobile smartphones still outsold it ( http://en.wikipedia....l_sales_figures ).

The thing with ipad is the ecosystem. long enough, supported enough, and many more. Maybe I'll look around and give a win 8 tablet a try first.[/quote]"ecosystem" - sounds like one of these marketing buzzwords people say when they can't think of something to actually say I think what this is meant to mean is having a common platform - but Windows certainly will have that, from the smallest mobile, up to a full size desktop.

Maybe win 8 tablet is going to be a good tablet, but like i said in my earlier post, ipad already winning in the app category.[/quote]Ipad has more software than Windows? If you say so. (Plus comparing raw numbers is never useful anyway - as Apple fans reminded us for years on OS X vs Windows...)

win 8 tablet will either be the next x-box or the next zune. or the next phone for kid i forgot what name.
[/quote]Perhaps you might remember the name if MS got even a fraction of the free advertising and hype that the media give to Apple (e.g., the overwhelming Islate, sorry, Ipad hype even before it was announced, let alone released, or more recently, the vaporware news over Iphone 5 that never appeared).

I think misunderstanding has derailed the thread course.

When I said, originally, in my first post, that ipad is the new PC, is that people buying it because of the software available, not the OS/hardware itself.

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/03/06/why-do-developers-prefer-ios-over-android-try-75-adoption-of-ios-5-while-ics-is-stuck-at-1/

Second I wasn't talking about smart phone ( or non smart phone. yes, I know nokia is popular in that area - not everyone has money. so something that cost 1/20th of Galaxy Note might have 20 times higher sales or something).

I was talking about tablets. Win 7 tablet is no go. wasn't create for finger use, and the pen is problematic at best (at least Toshiba models i tried) but that's my opnion. Maybe I'm too spolied with my Genius graphic tablet and expect a Win 7 tablet pen to be equally responsive and easy to use (and to me, it didn't).

To be fair, this is Android tablet compared to Windows tablet.

http://tablets.findthebest.com/compare/53-54/Acer-Iconia-Tab-W500-Series-vs-Acer-Iconia-Tab-A500

Quote: "[color=#4D4D4D][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

"The Acer Iconia Tab W500-BZ467 has the best Windows experience we've seen on a tablet, thanks to its docking keyboard. Lose that and the Iconia Tab loses a lot of its appeal."[/font]

I guess I'm not the only one who think inputting data in Win 7 tablet is quite problematic once a hardware keyboard is not available. With playbook out of the picture, I guess it's android vs ipad vs win 8 tablet. And Android have this "Linux problem" (my term). not only there are numerous version, even the same version have numerous company branch (which could change a lot of thing, including not allowing your newly bought phone for use to develop app and debug, can't be used for debugging app.

And it came without warning.


Anyway, win 8 tablet is new in the game. Android is too scattered. And now developers are focusing ipad. hence my earlier post regarding software that i wanted, and only available on ipad. maybe in the future and the time have came for me to buy my second tablet, i might go to win 8 tablet. but right now, ipad is too established.

i'm following cnet apple ipad unvelinvg.

now even autodesk is going to be ipad exlusive with some of their software:

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  That app is available in April, exclusively for iOS, Cheung says.[/font]2:47 AM

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  [color=#830000][font=franklin-gothic-urw-cond][size=1]2:47 AM[/font] | [color=#798794][font=inherit][size=1]by [color=#2964BF][font=inherit][size=1]Josh Lowensohn[/font][/font][/font]Cheung says Autodesk was a breakout app for the iPad, and since then they've got 15 products on the app store that have picked up some 20 million downloads.[/font]