Why do you keep saying "higher" when you mean "hire"?

Because I'm an idiot and not taking time to proof read my posts before submitting.

But yeah, no surprises that when a union doesn't have to do battle to actually make sensible education policy that they can be successful. By the way, educators are CONSTANTLY researching education best practices.[/quote]

The union doesn't care about sensible education policy. They care about maintaining their control over the education system. Their goal is not to better educate our students but to provide maximum protection for teacher, regardless of the quality of that teacher. Please, provide evidence that educators are CONSTANTLY researching education best practices. I'm sure that some educators do, but it's hardly a common practice. It's similar to the programming field, there are those who are constantly learning new things and staying on the cutting edge, but the majority of them work their 8 hours and that's it. What we need are more of those teachers who are willing to put in the extra effort, and the ability to get rid of those who don't! I'm all for higher teacher salaries, but only for deserving teachers, and the teachers unions make it impossible to do that.

Oh, and Finland has a 4.4% poverty rate.. one of the lowest internationally. Poverty has a profound impact on education. You see, the higher up the Pyramid you are on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.. the more you can devote time to activities like education.


[/quote]

Ok, so how is it the inner city charter school mentioned earlier is able to get 100% of them to college? Sure, poverty is one of the hurdles teachers have to be able to account for, but it's no an insurmountable problem.

The irony of this statement is palpable.

There is nothing ironic about it. I have never said we should abandon the public education system. I just believe it is in serious need of reform, starting with teachers unions and massive bureaucratic mess surrounding it. I would love to have the Finnish system. Lets pay teachers a much higher salary, and ensure that we're hiring the best of them. Lets allow teachers to have more autonomy (less regulation) around what and how they teach. Lets stop wasting time and money supporting a system that fails to deliver results that compete on a global level despite spending more money per student that practically every other country in the world. I see some charter schools as a way of showing that you can take the same kids that flounder in the public education system and put them into college. We need to learn from that, and adapt where we can to apply the same principles to our entire system.

Ok, so how is it the inner city charter school mentioned earlier is able to get 100% of them to college? Sure, poverty is one of the hurdles teachers have to be able to account for, but it's no an insurmountable problem.

I think I'm going to end on this note since the thread is pretty derailed. That school did a great job getting students into college.. they are a good example of what a small school can do using best practices educators have known for decades.

If you need evidence that teachers are doing research: http://scholar.google.com/

Thanks for the discussion.

So a school with high expectations, small class sizes and a system in place where every student had a personal teacher mentor succeeded? Wow.

I don't think having a personal mentor/adviser should be that taboo even with larger schools. Through high school and college I had advisers that would make sure I wasn't veering too far off in any particular piece of knowledge and helped me to plan my education. They'd be there to help if asked.

A bunch of students don't take full advantage of it, but that doesn't mean any school can't/shouldn't have this.

If you need evidence that teachers are doing research: http://scholar.google.com/

This is your evidence that a lot of teachers are spending time researching new teaching methods?

MF Global bankrupts; alleged shady accounting practices maybe to blame

There is the fuel to OWS's fire. At least one of them anyway. And the guy who did this is a Democrat. Which goes to show that corruption is ideology-blind.

The union doesn't care about sensible education policy. They care about maintaining their control over the education system. Their goal is not to better educate our students but to provide maximum protection for teacher, regardless of the quality of that teacher. Please, provide evidence that educators are CONSTANTLY researching education best practices. I'm sure that some educators do, but it's hardly a common practice. It's similar to the programming field, there are those who are constantly learning new things and staying on the cutting edge, but the majority of them work their 8 hours and that's it. What we need are more of those teachers who are willing to put in the extra effort, and the ability to get rid of those who don't! I'm all for higher teacher salaries, but only for deserving teachers, and the teachers unions make it impossible to do that.

Most of my family are American public teachers so I'm relaying what I've heard from them over the years:

(1) The unions are necessary. Teacher's are constantly marginalized into accepting lower pay for more work and less freedom. It's demoralizing and making the problem worse. Every teacher I know is now telling the next generation NOT to get into teaching, that it's not a good career choice anymore. It used to be, but it's not today. How do you expect to get good teachers when we're pushing away so many? Unions aren't the problem. It's politicians and adminstrators brainwashing people.

(2) Every teacher I know puts in rediculously long hours (10+ hours) and weekends for very little pay. You don't see it but when they go home they'll often have hours of grading papers to do each night. Administrators make rediculous amounts and comparatively don't work many hours at all. New "best practices", standardization, No Child Left Behind has all contributed to much worse education in the eyes of the teachers I know.

(3) Think back to the best teacher you ever had. What made them great? I can only speak for myself, but following a standardized textbook line for line is not the reason. They had real insight into their subject and life in general that they shared. They were able to inspire. You wanted to keep talking to them after class. We talk about good teachers and bad teachers, but we aren't measuring the right things.


And just to give you a little insight, think about how long it takes to make an hour long presentation. Now imagine you had 6 of those to do every day, and grading work to do after that. Being a teacher is a lot of work. Even once you have most of your lesson plans already written and you can reuse them year to year (you still get new classes/mandatory changes/new textbooks every few years), it's still mindblowing because you always have to tweak them and prepare beforehand and the grading never stops.

If we want things to get better, then we as consumers need to start putting our money into smaller businesses. What happened to locally owned gas stations, locally owned grocery stores, locally owned video rentals, or even locally owned coffee shops. Instead, we shop at huge chains such as walmart or blockbuster or Starbucks.

Vertical integration. The reason big grocery stores and franchises work so well is they offer convenience and do it cheaply. There are documentaries about how things used to be. You'd go to a single place to buy a few things. It was a lot more work. Now you stop at one place and get everything you need. For a locally owned place to compete would cost millions in investments to construct and then you'd need recognition through advertisement. It's a tough market where people already have habits. Also it's impossible to support local gas stations. They were all bought out by franchises. I for one haven't seen one ever. I go to a speedway since they offer a rewards program to get free gas.

Pretty sure blockbuster died. Netflix and Red Box took over. Family Video is still going strong. Again convenience.
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Yes, I understand why people have chosen big businesses over small businesses. Convenience, price and brand recognition. Same reason why we all drive to work in large vehicles and never ride a bike or walk no matter how close it is to where we are. It is also why we as Americans are vastly overweight. We choose convenience over anything else. I like convenience myself and I like brand recognition as well. I am not talking about avoiding all big businesses. We as consumers need the mindset of trying out your local business. Try out the donut shop down the street instead of krispy kremes. Try out a local italian restaurant instead of Olive Garden. There are small choices people can make that can make a large difference. I guess the main reason for going to a big business that I would like to break is "habit". Don't go to Wal-mart because you know they have everything when all you need is some meat and vegetables and some bread. If you can't pick small business, then go for medium sized business. Kroger or Tom Thumb is better than Walmart or choose Franchises when available. Chik-fil-a or subway is better than Jack in the Box. Maybe we need a better infrastructure for small businesses such as small business to business advertising. A small business network that actively works to promote local businesses. I am not sure. I am not trying to sound all preachy (sp?) but I have a feeling that is how I am coming off.

Note: I have nothing against Wal-mart in particular. It just happens to be a handy example.

(1) The unions are necessary. Teacher's are constantly marginalized into accepting lower pay for more work and less freedom. It's demoralizing and making the problem worse. Every teacher I know is now telling the next generation NOT to get into teaching, that it's not a good career choice anymore. It used to be, but it's not today. How do you expect to get good teachers when we're pushing away so many? Teachers aren't the problem. It's politicians and adminstrators brainwashing people.

(2) Every teacher I know puts in rediculously long hours (10+ hours) and wekeends for very little pay. You don't see it but when they go home they'll often have hours of grading papers to do each night. Administrators make rediculous amounts and comparatively don't work many hours at all. New "best practices", standardization, No Child Left Behind has all contributed to much worse education in the eyes of the teachers I know.

(3) Think back to the best teacher you ever had. What made them great? I can only speak for myself, but following a standardized textbook line for line is not the reason. They had real insight into their subject and life in general that they shared. They were able to inspire. You wanted to keep talking to them after class. We talk about good teachers and bad teachers, but we aren't measuring the right things.

These are pretty solid examples of why the teachers unions are bad for the people you talk to. New York public schools for example had to spend $30,000,000 annually on rubber room teachers' salaries for which they got no work in return. Not only does it take a huge chunk of change out of the system that could be going to your friends and family, but it also lowers the expectations of what a union teacher is capable of which also negatively affects salaries for ALL TEACHERS.


I totally agree that good teachers deserve more money for the effort they put in, but you can't work off the assumption that every teacher in the union is good. By nature unions force the horrible and the exceptional to be treated as average. If the skill differential is small it's fine, but for US teachers it is certainly not the case. Hell if unions even took more effort to enforce quality for their own members it would help all the members that actually deserve to be there.

Right now though, US unions are more concerned with raking in as much money as possible and fall into the same trap that the occupy movement is against. Teachers unions are a multi billion dollar per year business. The two largest teacher's unions have hundreds of employees making six figure salaries and both of their CEOs have higher salaries than Warren Buffet.

[quote name='tstrimple' timestamp='1320432856' post='4880564']
The union doesn't care about sensible education policy. They care about maintaining their control over the education system. Their goal is not to better educate our students but to provide maximum protection for teacher, regardless of the quality of that teacher. Please, provide evidence that educators are CONSTANTLY researching education best practices. I'm sure that some educators do, but it's hardly a common practice. It's similar to the programming field, there are those who are constantly learning new things and staying on the cutting edge, but the majority of them work their 8 hours and that's it. What we need are more of those teachers who are willing to put in the extra effort, and the ability to get rid of those who don't! I'm all for higher teacher salaries, but only for deserving teachers, and the teachers unions make it impossible to do that.

Most of my family are American public teachers so I'm relaying what I've heard from them over the years:

(1) The unions are necessary. Teacher's are constantly marginalized into accepting lower pay for more work and less freedom. It's demoralizing and making the problem worse. Every teacher I know is now telling the next generation NOT to get into teaching, that it's not a good career choice anymore. It used to be, but it's not today. How do you expect to get good teachers when we're pushing away so many? Unions aren't the problem. It's politicians and adminstrators brainwashing people.

(2) Every teacher I know puts in rediculously long hours (10+ hours) and weekends for very little pay. You don't see it but when they go home they'll often have hours of grading papers to do each night. Administrators make rediculous amounts and comparatively don't work many hours at all. New "best practices", standardization, No Child Left Behind has all contributed to much worse education in the eyes of the teachers I know.

(3) Think back to the best teacher you ever had. What made them great? I can only speak for myself, but following a standardized textbook line for line is not the reason. They had real insight into their subject and life in general that they shared. They were able to inspire. You wanted to keep talking to them after class. We talk about good teachers and bad teachers, but we aren't measuring the right things.


And just to give you a little insight, think about how long it takes to make an hour long presentation. Now imagine you had 6 of those to do every day, and grading work to do after that. Being a teacher is a lot of work. Even once you have most of your lesson plans already written and you can reuse them year to year (you still get new classes/mandatory changes/new textbooks every few years), it's still mindblowing because you always have to tweak them and prepare beforehand and the grading never stops.
[/quote]
This! 1000 times!