[color=#1C2837][size=2]Could you pin point a sentence where she sounds like 8 years old and show what you would write instead?[/quote]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]I know I was not asked but I want to say I got this vibe too and liked it more for it.
[color=#1C2837][size=2]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]There is a light-hearted enthusiasm to the character which helps cultivate this mental image. Lines like "I want it!" help cultivate this mental image. (If this warrants further explanation, say so; I don't know your cultural background.) This might also be inferred from the context where she's at a carnival and talking to a "boy"; this isn't strictly rational but it's easy to picture two children having this conversation. At least one is a child and they're on each others' level.

You have the following key problem; when you share a synopsis with non-fans there is little or no resonance.

I assert there's a few reasons, which I've touched on before but will expand upon them with examples and explanations.

1. Tools of writing.

You assert that a synopsis should have resonance. The problem is that even someone who might feel for and bond with a character or idea will likely not from a synopsis because it's incomplete, and because tools of engagement are often necessary to actually "get into it" unless the observer has an imagination that does the work for you.

[song snipped for brevity]

And to a lot of people who might, hypothetically, like the song, it will still sound very bland, maybe even timid or prissy. Detailing what the synthesized organ might sound like and even writing down a chord progression isn't going to help. It has to be finished. It has to have that line, "our tears are frozen diamonds so we smile while we're crying" with the image of a snowman with a candy smile & a face of frozen water, doomed to melt.

And if it does work as-is, than your work is done. There's nothing to add, in fact you're better off looking for what you can delete.

Two of what I consider the most basic tools of engagement are avoidance of flat assertions and parsimony. Your piece requires both flat assertions and details, many of which are wholly superfluous to most effects other than "get other writers on the same page to produce the actual art". Your piece does exactly what it says on the tin and you should neither feel bad about nor expect anyone to find it particularly resonating.

I think this is a very interesting statement (and not antagonistic at all). I don't think that I have any problem feeling resonance with synopses. I mean, I agree that a summary can't take the reader on the emotional journey the actual fleshed-out piece of writing could. But it's common in the publishing industry for agents and publishers to ask for a synopsis of a novel and use that to evaluate whether to read the manuscript or not. In the screenwriting field the "elevator pitch", an even shorter summary, is used to convince producers to read a screenplay. So I just assumed most experienced authors would be able to read a summary in the same way publishers and producers do. And I always wondered why writers do not more commonly critique each others' synopses as a way of improving the design of a story, especially its plot structure and expression of theme, before writing the first draft. My guess was that this is because at least half of writers make up their first draft as they go along and do not do much design ahead of time. But if you think being able to interpret a synopsis as a story is an uncommon ability, that sort of puts the nail in the coffin of my already-failed attempts to find or start a synopsis critique group.

I mean, I realize the fact that I want to work with syonpses when others don't (or as you suggest, can't) is as much down to me being lazy as anything else. I have the irritating combination of a brain that regularly produces story ideas but a lack of any drive to actually sit down and write out those stories. I love synopses because they are so much more satisfying to me to write - writing non-fiction is much easier and more fun for me than writing fiction, and being able to put a complete idea down on paper in a few hours feels much more rewarding to me than trying to put the same idea down in much greater detail over the course of months. I also love the challenge of looking at someone else's synopsis and suggesting how to improve the underlying structure. Because I find synopses so enjoyable to create and work with, it's just frustrating to me that I can't find others with whom to do this activity in a group.

2. Resonance is Personal

We have this piece here. It's a US army commercial [snip]

Some will hear that, get maybe a warm and fuzzy feeling, or just plain think it's an appropriate thing to do or a good idea. Someone is a fit for this, and might be so inclined to "pick up the phone". That's the person the commercial wants to connect with. Someone else is likely wanting to call his TV station and complain, but if they blunted the advert to appeal that person, it would likely resonate with nobody in the end.

I showed Molly to multiple other people. Some found it funny and at least one person found it deeply resonant. Some did not like it at all and it even pushed the wrong buttons. For whatever reason women were more likely to like it than men. Whichever; the important thing is that somebody loves it.

You normally write in a very different context than this, and have taken what you produce naturally and is resonant with yourself and shown it to three or four strangers. There's a non-zero chance that at least one will find it resonant. There's also a good chance none will, and I would say pure and simple that it really doesn't mean anything.[/quote]
This I've certainly experienced before. When I see a little newbie writer posting their story concept on a forum hoping others will give an enthusiastic stamp of approval and encourage them to write it, I will commonly respond saying that the population of your average writing forum is diverse and jaded such that no idea would get that kind of enthusiastic response, including ideas that would go on to be bestsellers and blockbuster movies. A perfectly good idea which would be enjoyed by many people after publication will not get much more than crickets chirping if you ask any random group of people (online or irl) if they like the idea. Now, personally I'm not sure I really "get" the idea that "the important thing is somebody loves it". But again this is down to my motivation problems and lack of desire to create and publish finished fiction. I don't get any satisfaction out of the idea that someone enjoyed my writing unless they actually discuss the piece with me after reading it. And that's just not what readers do, especially of published books rather than stuff posted at online archives which may be set up to elicit comments. Even then, once I've written a piece out as actual fiction I'm done with it, somewhat bored of it. When I really value and enjoy discussing it is when I'm still developing the idea.

3) Well why not?

I could write an essay on my own personal rationalizations for why not and how I'd do things different and discuss how it reminds me of Jonas Quinn from Stargate and why that character didn't work.[/quote]
If I was familiar with that character I'd want to discuss it, but unfortunately I'm not. If you mean Stargate the movie, I've been wanting to watch that again anyway. But I think there was a tv series or something? I've never seen that.

But if in your normal context and when writing completed works you don't have any problem, than there is no problem.[/quote]
True, and the main reason I've been confused rather than upset by being unable to communicate via a synopsis why I think the woman who does the sneaking and kidnapping is an appealing ans sympathetic character.

Like the army commercial, it may even be the case that if you were to fix it such that we don't find it too displeasing, than nobody will love it anymore because it blunted whatever resonance it had with someone else in a hopeless effort to not be disliked by folks who don't matter.[/quote]
Re the kidnapper who may or may not be a sociopath, I wasn't considering changing my conception of her character or the plot, I was only trying to troubleshoot whether I was communicating these badly. I often find minor villains to be the most appealing characters and am very unimpressed if someone tries to bowdlerize one to make him or her the hero of their own series. But with Cara the contest entry, she was sort of "neutered" in this way to start with because as a quest-giving NPC I intentionally stripped her of any agency to put that in the hands of the player instead. It seems logical to me that this made her come across as bland.

4) But really why not?

For completeness. And first, a reminder that resonance is personal.

Her fear fails to generate serious tension because it doesn't go against anything. It seems to hint that she wishes she was respected, but I do not see an effort to earn it. Trapping the guy and all that doesn't help for me because it's still only a component of complete submission and while her fear results in a certain path, I don't see any real tension or challenge, and as seen it's somewhat difficult to infer her personality from that sub story in clear way. Fear, it seems, is something she has taken on as part of her identity and wholly owned.

She needs some kind of drive or something or - really, anything - for there to be some kind of clash or tension or something worth reading. She seems to just be like whatever. It says she doesn't like not being respected and being thought of as a child, but she is like a child and I do not respect her. I do not see any drive to change that; only a complaint.

I do not see any particular drive to get this particular guy Jareth. What I see is "I guess this is my lot in life, maybe I'll see what that guy's like, who knows". This is an act of submission to Millcraft rather than much of an aspiration.

I cannot respect her. This is a big deal for me at this point in my life. I'll not talk about why.

It may be the case that there is a lot of tension, clash, challenge and what I call "hard problems" in an actual work, but it is cut from this synopsis. And I'd reiterate a thousand times that it doesn't matter what I think of her and why, and finally that I might actually enjoy a final & complete story with no changes to the core idea whatsoever. She might work excellent in a game as part of a larger whole.

This in itself is just not enough for me.

Final note, I didn't vote it below Wai's cause I thought it was bad; I just really really liked Wai's. I think the thing is perfect. I am primarily concerned that your expected reaction is wrong and that it's inappropriate to judge & discuss it like this. We are, in effect, looking at a video of sausage being made, and not a sausage. I stand by that.
[/quote]
Cara wants to be respected as an adult but does not trap anyone. Unless you meant using social pressure to make Sir. Millcraft allow a man he disapproved of into his house. I guess trap is a reasonable word for that. That's actually a common thing in regency romances as a humorous example of how womanly wiles are a subtle but powerful way a woman can fight back against a man who is being particularly pompus. My personal opinion is that any adult who acts in a civil and not utterly foolish way deserves to be respected as an adult and a person. Sir. Millcraft treating this adult intelligent woman like a teenager who is only halfway-civilized is something I see as condescending and fundamentally disrespectful, but I didn't develop that idea much in the contest entry. Honestly my opinion of my own entry is that I did the minimum amount of work and could have made use of more words to paint a more interesting picture of the character. But I was focused on the idea of not overdeveloping her because she was intended to be only a minor character, and if I developed her more I would have wanted to tell the story from her point of view and make her the one with the agency and all that is inappropriate to an NPC, in my opinion. I felt the same tension in trying to evaluate the other entries - my instinct is to prefer things appropriate for main characters, but the prompt called for a secondary character. But yeah, I'm not attached to Cara except in that I put some issues into her which I care about and have considered developing in other bigger projects.

I am primarily concerned that your expected reaction is wrong and that it's inappropriate to judge & discuss it like this.[/quote]
This made me feel concerned, particularly that word inappropriate. If my expected reaction was wrong, I think that's fine, then I learned something from the contest. But do you feel that we shouldn't be having this discussion? That I'd strongly disagree with. Or do you feel that it's inappropriate to judge these brief character creations at all? What exactly is inappropriate and do you thing we should do something different with the next contest?

I think I get it all now!

[color="#1C2837"]This made me feel concerned, particularly that word inappropriate.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]Sorry, I just like that word.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]So we have what's basically a planning sheet and some persons say it's flat. This is inappropriate; of course it's a bit flat.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]I shouldn't have singled you out. Basically we have people talking about why something that is a detailed planning sheet feels flat. It's flat because it's the close in work that makes reading an active process and means the difference between sharing an academic understanding of something and sharing some spirit & feeling.

[color="#1c2837"]Talking is fine and fun, just so long as it's not treated as make or break for it or anything.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]You're concerned that she's been severely misinterpreted. She has been. Let's explore.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"](Also, w/r/t a contest, I would say that for something like this, the voters need a spec, too.)
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]I was only trying to troubleshoot whether I was communicating these badly[/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]I read her as lacking agency and actually yes, of course, that could be the whole problem. Not a problem with your idea, but a problem for the player to use his tools to solve and actually there's a few ways to do it. This could work excellently.

[color="#1c2837"]If I were in your spot I would try to better frame the discussion. I'll give an example shortly.

[color="#1C2837"]But if you think being able to interpret a synopsis as a story is an uncommon ability, that sort of puts the nail in the coffin of my already-failed attempts to find or start a synopsis critique group.[/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]A pitch is yet another super different use case. Let's combine this point and the discussion framing.


[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]as a quest-giving NPC I intentionally stripped her of any agency ... logical to me that this made her come across as bland.[/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]Spose I wrote:

[color="#1c2837"]

We have a character X who is shy and wants to find out more about a potential suitor Y. She's being pressured to marry by this other character Z but is just going along with it. There can be multiple solutions to the situation that emphasize different player character skills and player choice.[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]It's already quite easy to envision giving the player agency to talk to her to push her to do something different ("get some ambitions!"), or talk to Millcraft ("dude back off!"), or accept her wants at face value ("sure, I'll go talk to Jareth"). Or go learn about Jareth, and there's a rumor that he's, well, you know, and you gotta like, find out, and you talk to him, but maybe your speech stats aren't that high, but you can break into his house at night and interrogate him or search his desk, etc.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]The key point is the discussion is frame in terms of the player's role, and now whether someone likes the character and so on (in and of herself) its likely not even going to come up.

[color="#1C2837"]This pitch is meant for internal use; not a cold-call sales pitch but to a writing or design team and thus it discusses the idea in terms of the player's role in the game in a somewhat informal style. It's sufficient for a go, no-go decision.
[color="#1C2837"]
Then we have all the details as written. (So either a lot more than is here, or a lot less.)

[color="#1c2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]Sociopath? No. Lack of agency, then I was skimming some of the discussion (I'm quite distracted this week, I'm sorry) and someone said "kidnapping" and I was reminded of something else and those things came together in my mind. For personal reasons those things go together in my head, but never mind that. I did look at it again carefully and no.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]There's more to think about but I must go feed this here baby, etc.

And now she sleeps, so I continue.

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]But do you feel that we shouldn't be having this discussion[/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]Just that it might be mis-framed.

[color="#1c2837"]I wrote:

[color="#1c2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]The key point is the discussion is frame in terms of the player's role[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]This would make sense w/r/t pitching, but now reflecting on everything I'm more interested in:
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]confused rather than upset by being unable to communicate via a synopsis why I think the woman who does the sneaking and kidnapping is an appealing[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]She can be appealing in theory, but in this work it's a bit difficult because it's essentially points of data, yes? Just the flat facts.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]When I say "frame the discussion", what I mean is that everyone has a sort of mental framework under which they're interpreting facts. Personally I can see complacency as a component of sociopathy so when others floated it, it snapped together for me. That's a framework.
[color="#1c2837"]But you can always establish a different framework, often without anyone noticing. Openings are sometimes written with this in mind. The first paragraph here (Tell-Tale Heart) is my favorite example, albeit a very blatant one.

[color="#1c2837"]Even in a synopsis, actually. Or anything. I've used this tactic in disagreements at work.

[color="#1c2837"]Actually, I totally get what you're talking about now because of this:

[color="#1C2837"]

[color="#1C2837"]That's actually a common thing in regency romances as a humorous example of how womanly wiles are a subtle but powerful way a woman can fight back against a man who is being particularly pompous[/quote]
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]These romances create this framework for interpreting these actions.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]Under a modern framework, it would be viewed entirely differently for a lot of reasons, and actually now I feel a bit silly for not looking at it this way but this just isn't a thing I'm too familiar with. The closest parallel I've seen was The Wings of the Dove which plays this out as a bit of a tragedy. Reframing completed works done this way is a common kind of joke. Generally any time you see a joke about the Lifetime TV channel, it's some kind of reframing.

[color="#1c2837"]Running off again for a bit.

The only things I personally gained from the contest are a census of active forum members and this ongoing discussion of the results. So at least no entry will be used in any literal sense. I can only assume that everyone who chose to enter did so because they found some benefit in doing so, whether the challenge and practice or the discussion afterward or anything.

My initial reason to enter the contest was that I was going to continue my thread on character design by consider relations, since the topic is so similar, I feel an obligation to enter the contest. However, when I started writing, I realized that since my thread wasn't even active, there was no point in resuming it, so there was also no point in entering the contest. Since my entry didn't really fit the format anyway, I didn't submit it. Then the deadline passed, and there were only two entries. You said you wanted five, so I submitted mine. I also entered because by then I knew that the two entries were by JoeCooper and TechnoGoth. I only recognized JoeCooper for his comments on my other threads, I recognize TechnoGoth because we were in collaboration at least two times. I was also doing it because you started it. We disagree and I am hard over the internet, but I appreciate your effort to give some life to the forum.

I think it is odd for you to assert that people do things because they want to get some kind of benefit. People think that a situation could be Win-Win, Win-Lose, Lose-Win, Lose-Lose, but I think often times people act without thinking about it like this. It would be fitting to call it Neutral-Win. The person acted not because they wanted to gain something or to prevent some kind of loss. They do it because that is what they would do in that circumstance. They aren't framing the situation in terms of values to them.

My main motive was to test whether this forum still has anything to contribute in terms of training people to be game writers. My opinion is that the contest showed the forum membership is more experienced than that sort of training is appropriate for and not headed toward a position in the game industry, so a different focus encouraging others to share their own projects would be more appropriate for future contests.

To me this sounds like because you think that people do things because they want to get something, when you tried to explain your motive you phrased it like that to fit the assertion. I mean, if you were trying to gauge what the forum needs, wouldn't it be simpler to just ask? If this contest is a test as your described, I don't think it was a good test and your assessment is incorrect. After the contest, people have already gave you a bunch of ideas on what sort of contest they want, but the conclusion doesn't seem to account for that input (See TechnoGoth's, Bigdeadbug's, JoeCooper's comments about future contests). They are interested in similar contest on writing skills useful in the game industry. Being a prolific bunch, they don't have a problem making new content for a contest.

[color="#1C2837"]There is a light-hearted enthusiasm to the character which helps cultivate this mental image. Lines like "I want it!" help cultivate this mental image. (If this warrants further explanation, say so; I don't know your cultural background.) This might also be inferred from the context where she's at a carnival and talking to a "boy"; this isn't strictly rational but it's easy to picture two children having this conversation. At least one is a child and they're on each others' level.

That was the scene I was writing in the bottom half in my entry. The persona that said, "I want it!" was Little Red Riding Hood. This is Little Red Riding Hood. It was a conversation between two children.

I would be happy to find some sentences where she gives me the impression of being 8. But when you say "what I would write instead", how old do you want her to sound? I would not personally choose to change her into someone who thinks like I do; "what I would write" would be adding a second character to interact with her. If you want me to I can try to reimagine her as a sophisticated adult but it would be a huge change, she wouldn't be the same character any more.

I just want you give an example because your original comment was vague. Unlike what JoeCooper said, I don't think you were referring to the carnival scene because you said that you have problem with the "minds of Skyle and the I character". If you were referring to the carnival scene, you would have said 'Skyle and the boy." Therefore you were talking about the scene in the wheat field.

The only thing that failed to catch my interest was the childlike nature of the minds of both Skyle and the I character. She seems to be about 8 years old? At least, 8 was the age at which I though with this sort of style. Childlike characters can be appealing, but I can accept them better if there is a character with an adult mind in the same story, and I either am shown the child through the eyes of the adult, or I am shown the world alternately through the eyes of a child, which presents it in an interesting simple yet unfamiliar way, then through the eyes of the adult, which explains and analyzes it in a more familiar way that adds information because it is more complex.

I obviously can't write anything that is more mature than my own mind, but I think the content of the conversation in the wheat field wasn't exactly childlike.
This was the conversation in question:

[1 - Skyle] "Peace is not kept by those who can destroy evil, but by those who are still content when there is nothing evil to destroy."

[2 - Author (Narration)] This was what Skyle said one day while we were lying on a crop circle, on a wheat field, as usual. The ripen crop blocked the view of the surrounding land, leaving only the sky, and the time for some random thoughts.

[3 - Author] "Who said that?"
[4 - Skyle] "A shadow."

[5 - Author (Narration)] A 'shadow' is a troubled inner self. Skyle called them shadows because that is what they looked like when she saw them in people's minds. I've never been to someone else's mind. According to Skyle, it was mostly a benign place, but it could get very scary, very quickly, when the mind discovered an intruder. Sometimes when she came back she would become withdrawn and wouldn't talk. In times like that, I could only wait silently, so that when she would be ready, there would be someone to talk to.

[6 - Author] "It is hard to imagine someone who said that is a shadow."
[7 - Skyle] "He was a shadow because he couldn't decide whether he should keep those thoughts to himself. Do you think that often times something is better not said, even if you know that people could be helped by knowing it?"
[8 - Author] "I don't know whether it should be said, but in my experience, if you say something valuable when no one was asking for it, chances are people would just ignore it. Sometimes you need to have a certain experience to understand the meaning of what is said."
[9 - Skyle] "But wouldn't that fill you with regret, if you find out later that if you had said something, it might have prevented the consequence?"

[10 - Author (Narration)] I didn't know what to say, but I was starting to get what the shadow was this time. The shadow was someone who had gone through an ordeal to learn a lesson that could have prevented it. He saw that someone else was about get entangled by the same ordeal, but wouldn't listen to his advise. He was trapped because he couldn't tell if he was wrong for trying to say something, or wrong for not saying anything.
[11 - Author (Player Choices)] I thought:
a) He should just say it. Then at least he won't regret for not saying it.
b) He should learn how to say it in a way that people would listen
c) He should believe that people could learn on their own
d) He should believe that for some lessons, people could only learn from their own experience.
e) He should believe that what was an ordeal for him wasn't an ordeal for someone else
f) He should do something so that the others wouldn't get near that situation in the first place
g) ...

[12 - Author] "Do you agree with what he said?"
[13 - Skyle] "I think so, why?"
[14 - Author] "Maybe he just want to know that someone understands."
[15 - Skyle] "Is that it?"
[16 - Author] "Worth a try."
[17 - Skyle] "Alright!"

I want to know what part of it is childlike, and how an adult would have said it instead. I think you don't need to rewrite the entire scene, I am just asking you to describe what you read from the dialog, like how I interpreted Cara's dialogs. Would you pin point what you perceived before you wrote your critique, so that I know what gave you the impression? Or did you mis-attribute because the second part afterwards has a different mood:

[18 - Skyle (Perspective)] Skyle found herself in a crowded place like a carnival. There was a big tent. In the tent there was an announcer with a top hat, the announcer said:
[19 - Announcer] "Ladies and gentlemen! Welcome to the fantasy character contest! The contestants will come to the stage shortly after these messages from our sponsors...!"

[20 - Skyle (Action)] ** Skyle sneaked into the backstage. **

[21 - Skyle (Perspective)] The contestants were lining up in costumes. There was a paladin, a rouge, a ranger, an assassin, a dragon, a healer, a wizard, and a boy who hadn't made up his mind. The shadow around the boy showed Skyle that he was a shadow. Duh.
[22 - Teacher] A teacher walked to the boy and asked, "Have you decided what you want to be?"

[23 - Boy] "Um... I have some ideas..."
[24 - Teacher] "You better hurry up, it is almost time..."
[25 - Boy] "Yes, Miss..."

[26 - Skyle (Perspective)] When the teacher walked away, the boy took out a piece of paper from his pocket. He looked at it, then he folded it back up, put it in his pocket, and walked out of the tent. Outside the tent, he looked at his watch, as if waiting for the contest to begin.

[27 - Skyle (Perspective)] "It seemed like he didn't want to enter the contest..." thought Skyle.
[28 - Boy, and Skyle (Perspective)] "Who's there?" the boy suddenly noticed that there was someone hiding and looked into Skyle's direction.

[29 - Skyle (Branching point)] Skyle:
a) Is a cat
b) Is a fairy
c) Is the announcer
d) Is the teacher
e) ...

[30 - Skyle] "Oh my! What big tent this is!" Skyle said, and walked out slowly.
[31 - Boy] "Little Red Riding Hood?" said the boy.
[32 - Skyle, and her perspective] "Everyone knows the Little Red Riding Hood! Oh my..." Skyle saw that she got totally decked out in that costume with a picnic basket.

[33 - Boy] "The contest is about to start, aren't you going in?"
[34 - LRRH Skyle] "Nope."
[35 -Boy] "Why not? I think you will win."
[36 - LRRH Skyle] "I'm not going in unless you go in."
[37 - Boy] "That's okay, my character isn't as good."
[38 - LRRH Skyle] "No way! Yours is the best!"
[39 - Boy] "Why?"
[40 - LRRH Skyle] "Because yours is the only one that is truly peaceful!"
[41 - Boy] "How would you know?"
[42 - LRRH Skyle] "Because every other character has something to do with fighting, but yours is different!"
[43 - Boy] "But being different isn't good. It just means no one wants it."
[44 - LRRH Skyle] "I want it!"
[45 - Boy] "But you don't even know what it is!"
[46 - LRRH Skyle] "Then show me!"
[47 - Boy] "Alright..."

[48 - Boy] With that said, the boy started to put on his costume, saying:
"I am a witch that can go into people's mind to help them when they are sad. Everyone is afraid of me, for fear that their secret would be known. But I don't give up, because I know that somewhere, someone will understand..."
[49 - LRRH Skyle (Perspective)] When the boy turned around, he was wearing a blue flat cap, a white shirt loosely tuck into blue jeans that ran down to a pair of canvas sneakers.
"Oh my..." Little Red Riding Hood dropped her basket.
[50 - Boy] "It is pretty boring isn't it. There is no monster to fight, no conspiracy to uncover... just the actual problems that make people sad that they don't admit or try to solve..." the boy continued, "In any case, I can't enter because I only know her first name."
[51 - LRRH Skyle (Perspective)] The boy reached into his pocket and showed her the piece of paper. It was a form, but nothing was filled except a first name.

Comment on 'a piece of dialog':

I wrote many lines because the contest said "at least 4" and the max word count was 2500. I didn't see how a character description could worth 2500 words, so I thought that limit corresponded to the dialogs. It didn't occur to me that a 'dialog' means one continuous block of spoken words enclosed by quotation marks. I thought that a dialog is just a sub unit of a conversation that is a spoken exchange between two speakers.

In the entry, there are 3 conversations. They are 1) Skyle and Author at the wheat field; 2) Teacher and the boy at backstage; 3) Boy and Skyle outside the carnival tent. In each conversation, there are a number of dialogs. Each dialog is not a line spoken by one speaker, but a unit of information exchange. Since I wrote only 2 conversations involving Skyle, I singled out four dialogs to show that there weren't too few dialogs.

The four 'dialogs' I singled out were:

1. A shadow's words
[1 - Skyle] "Peace is not kept by those who can destroy evil, but by those who are still content when there is nothing evil to destroy."
[3 - Author] "Who said that?"
[4 - Skyle] "A shadow."

2. Skyle would try
[12 - Author] "Do you agree with what he said?"
[13 - Skyle] "I think so, why?"
[14 - Author] "Maybe he just want to know that someone understands."
[15 - Skyle] "Is that it?"
[16 - Author] "Worth a try."
[17 - Skyle] "Alright!"

3. Skyle as Little Red Riding Hood
[30 - Skyle] "Oh my! What big tent this is!"
[31 - Boy] "Little Red Riding Hood?"
[32 - Skyle] "Everyone knows the Little Red Riding Hood! Oh my..."

4. Little Red explains
[38 - LRRH Skyle] "No way! Yours is the best!"
[39 - Boy] "Why?"
[40 - LRRH Skyle] "Because yours is the only one that is truly peaceful!"
[41 - Boy] "How would you know?"
[42 - LRRH Skyle] "Because every other character has something to do with fighting, but yours is different!"

When I read these segments, it is clear to me that they are not the overall conversation, but there is sense of completeness in them. One speaker says something and the other speaker replies, and the exchange is functionally complete by itself. This was what I thought a dialog is. When I count it like this, I only count about 8 dialogs in my entry. In this definition, the other entries actually have only written halves of dialog, but since everyone else understand 'dialog' in that way, I guess that is the meaning of 'dialog'.

So after reading this explanation, what is a dialog? Is it functional spoken exchange between two speakers, or the spoken words of one speaker during a two-person exchange?

Adding to the confusion is the phrase "A piece of dialog". Here, is the word 'piece' a unit of a whole as in 'a piece of advice' (i.e. an advice), or is the word a partial component of a whole, as in 'a piece of apple pie (i.e. not the whole pie, but just a slice of it).

In the phrase 'a piece of dialog', what does 'dialog' mean to you and what does 'piece' mean to you?

For me: Piece = unit of whole. Dialog = functional spoken exchange between two speakers

Did you count it the way you did because a 'dialog' is by definition a multi-line exchange, but 'a piece' of it is just one line; or that a 'dialog' means one line, and 'a piece' is just a quantifier?

Back. 3rd and final.

It occurs to me a second parallel (besides The Wings of a Dove) is The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

Basically he's "taken in" by his uncle (Phil?) who has an up-scale family and there's this same theme of aiming to "civilize" him and so on. Except it's framed like this (link to opening theme).

At this point I'm thinking that maybe yes, there is a problem with the synopsis, and that's it; you've provided points of data but they don't characterize how one is supposed to think about it. This could be a problem on a team if not everyone has the same vision. In this way, the "flat" feel and the misinterpretation are actually quite correlated. But it will be a problem simply because people will often not agree on how to look at a piece of data even if they have literally the same data. But most people, most of the time, are happy to look at an art in its own light if they know what that light is.

So maybe that's it. Lemme know what you think, at this moment I'm out of ideas, although talking and writing about the piece has warmed me up to it a lot.

I apologize if I've contradicted myself any and also about some skimming, I'm pretty tired these days and under a lot of pressure so my head's not all sharpest and attention not all here.

And, if you have another contest, I will not write my entry at 2 AM after drinking this time.

[color=#1C2837][size=2]But again this is down to my motivation problems and lack of desire to create and publish finished fiction ... When I really value and enjoy discussing it is when I'm still developing the idea.[/quote]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]I totally get you; that's all fine, fair & fun. I know a writer and he's working on a novel project, as am I, and it's fun to bounce ideas and discuss things and develop things and share thoughts.
[color=#1C2837][size=2]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]If you want to throw out ideas here for discussion, by all means.
[color=#1C2837][size=2]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]I do have a desire to have finished fiction published. I started writing fiction this past winter for personal reasons. I have always written a lot and am very obsessive compulsive about everything I write however have not written much fiction except for some nonsense webcomics as a teenager. That's where I'm at.

@wai I was definitely pleased by each entry, I think had only two been entered the exercise would have mostly failed. Four seems to have provided adequate material for discussion and thought, and this makes me happy. As far as the definition of dialogue goes, I was imagining mine as a case where the player is a mute protagonist except when given action choices (like which suitor to recommend to Cara). So that's a degenerate case in which half the dialogue = all the dialogue. I think a two-sided conversation often is more interesting and easier to understand, and equally appropriate for the prompt given (any game with talkative NPCs). I'd like to start another contest or group activity tomorrow or monday so I will be looking back through the thread. As far as asking people directly, in my life I've found that people (specifically including myself) often do not know what they want if you ask them with no warm-up activity, and often can't express what would help them even if they know at a non-verbal level; also they may refrain from expressing anything not in line with the current environment and past activities. So, I always like to combine direct asking and activities which encourage people to be introspective and ask questions.

I do personally think that everyone does everything they do for a reason, usually multiple reasons, and almost always involving that person seeking a benefit or pleasure, or avoiding a penalty or guilt. I also think often people don't realize what their motives are, but still have them subconsciously. This theory about how people work is part of my psyche at a deep level so it would never normally occur to me to think otherwise.

Ok I'll go through here and bold everything that strikes me as being childlike, simplistic, innocent, or whatever. I'm going to do it for the whole piece, not just Skyle or her dialogue. These are not rational choices, they are my quick impressions during reading. I'll jot some of my impressions in square brackets after them.

Entry C - Skyle


Names: Skyle Katherine, Scaffany, Serenity

Appearance: Long braided light orange hair, narrow shoulders, non-athletic build, blue flat cap [can't remember the last time I've seen an adult wear a cap], white tailed dress shirt over a light blue nautical sweater, fitting jeans with wing symbol near ankle [maybe teen more than child for this particular one], canvas sneakers. Her appearance in mind space varies.

Personality: Empathetic, considerate, silly at times.

Backstory: Skyle is a witch who searches through people's minds trying to find someone like her. In doing so, she encounters minds that are stuck by thought patterns called shadows [simplistic term, lack of analysis of what they are in a larger system of scientific, magical, or religious terms or beliefs]. Resolving them frees the people troubled by them. The player found Skyle by following clues that she left behind, and helps her solve these patterns when she was stuck.

Wants: Skyle wants the player to find her and solve shadows. [unexplained motives, context for this desire]


"Peace is not kept by those who can destroy evil, but by those who are still content when there is nothing evil to destroy."

This was what Skyle said one day while we were lying on a crop circle, on a wheat field, as usual. [Lying on the ground as a regular activity is much more common of children and teens than adults]. The ripen crop blocked the view of the surrounding land, leaving only the sky, and the time for some random thoughts.

"Who said that?" I asked.
"A shadow." She said.

A 'shadow' is a troubled inner self. Skyle called them shadows because that is what they looked like when she saw them in people's minds. I've never been to someone else's mind. According to Skyle, it was mostly a benign place, but it could get very scary, very quickly, when the mind discovered an intruder. Sometimes when she came back she would become withdrawn and wouldn't talk. In times like that, I could only wait silently, so that when she would be ready, there would be someone to talk to. [Because of the order in which this information is presented I'm having some difficulty putting together the meaning of the conversation. It became clear after looking at the conversation as a whole about 3 times, but was confusing at first read. I don't think this was a result of the minor re-ordering I did of your entry (and it wasn't the only one I re-ordered) but I'd have to look at the version submitted to me to confirm that.]

"It is hard to imagine someone who said that is a shadow."
"He was a shadow because he couldn't decide whether he should keep those thoughts to himself. Do you think that often times something is better not said, even if you know that people could be helped by knowing it?" She said. [I'm not sure why this strikes me as childlike, except that the grammar seems a bit simplified, this could be a dialect thing. I know that in my regional dialect, for example, it is correct to say "the car needs fixed" but people from some other dialects view this as incorrectly oversimplified and prefer "the car needs to be fixed". I remember discussing in a linguistics class how dialect differences can result in wrong interpretations, but that was about 10 years ago so I don't remember it in much detail.]

"I don't know whether it should be said, but in my experience, if you say something valuable when no one was asking for it, chances are people would just ignore it. Sometimes you need to have a certain experience to understand the meaning of what is said." [The thought here that it is a problem if people ignore you, or that one should be quiet if others are not going to listen, strikes me as a bit naive. What about the possibility of saying it repeatedly or in a different way?]
"But wouldn't that fill you with regret, if you find out later that if you had said something, it might have prevented the consequence [not childlike, just awkward]?"

I didn't know what to say, but I was starting to get what the shadow was this time. The shadow was someone who had gone through an ordeal to learn a lesson that could have prevented it. He saw that someone else was about get entangled by the same ordeal, but wouldn't listen to his advise [advice Ok that's just me being a grammar nazi now, ignore that. ]. He was trapped because he couldn't tell if he was wrong for trying to say something, or wrong for not saying anything.

I thought:

a) He should just say it. Then at least he won't regret for not saying it.
b) He should learn how to say it in a way that people would listen
c) He should believe that people could learn on their own
d) He should believe that for some lessons, people could only learn from their own experience.
e) He should believe that what was an ordeal for him wasn't an ordeal for someone else
f) He should do something so that the others wouldn't get near that situation in the first place
g) ...
[These aren't overly-simple thoughts. It's just that for myself I'd want to say they are all right as general principles, and what he actually needs to learn is how to decide which is appropriate for any given situation. And I see a decision-making matrix like that as being a central element of mature thought.]

I said: "Do you agree with what he said?"

"I think so, why?" She said. [Either she does, or she has a specific doubt, or she doesn't for a specific reason. Being uncertain of one's own opinion and not analyzing the reasons for the uncertainty is something I've often observed in children and teenagers.]
"Maybe he just want to know that someone understands."
"Is that it?"
"Worth a try."
"Alright!"

* * *

Skyle found herself in a crowded place like a carnival. There was a big tent. In the tent there was an announcer with a top hat, the announcer said:

"Ladies and gentlemen! Welcome to the fantasy character contest! The contestants will come to the stage shortly after these messages from our sponsors...!"

** Skyle sneaked into the backstage. ** [An adult would usually have a specific reason before doing anything violating a rule. She probably did, something to do with shadows, and it's just not stated here.]

The contestants were lining up in costumes. There was a paladin, a rouge [rouge is red makeup, rogue is a thief or assassin, ignore the grammar nazi again .], a ranger, an assassin, a dragon, a healer, a wizard, and a boy who hadn't made up his mind. The shadow around the boy showed Skyle that he was a shadow. Duh. [Was confused by why this duh is here. Who is thinking it?]

A teacher walked to the boy and asked, "Have you decided what you want to be?"
The boy said, "Um... I have some ideas..."
"You better hurry up, it is almost time..."
"Yes, Miss..."

When the teacher walked away, the boy took out a piece of paper from his pocket. He looked at it, then he folded it back up, put it in his pocket, and walked out of the tent. Outside the tent, he looked at his watch, as if waiting for the contest to begin.

"It seemed like he didn't want to enter the contest..." thought Skyle.
"Who's there?" the boy suddenly noticed that there was someone hiding and looked into Skyle's direction.

Skyle:
a) Is a cat
b) Is a fairy
c) Is the announcer
d) Is the teacher
e) ...

"Oh my! What big tent this is!" Skyle said, and walked out slowly.
"Little Red Riding Hood?" said the boy.
"Everyone knows the Little Red Riding Hood! Oh my..." Skyle saw that she got totally decked out in that costume with a picnic basket. [I'm confused here - did she get into a costume without noticing, somehow? If it is a costume and nothing more, her age would be unaffected; there's no reason for Red Riding Hood to be a persona of her own as describen in Wai's response to Joe Cooper. Also, red riding hood is a childlike costume in comparison to the typical MMO classes listed earlier. Something like a pony express delivery rider or a fairy godmother or a healer would be a more adult equivalent. I can see how red riding hood would be an example of a player who goes around making deliveries and helping NPCs, but I had to stop and think about what red riding hood was supposed to symbolize before this occurred to me.]

"The contest is about to start, aren't you going in?"
"Nope."
"Why not? I think you will win."
"I'm not going in unless you go in."
"That's okay, my character isn't as good." [Isn't as good as what? Why would that make it ok not to enter?]
"No way! Yours is the best!"
"Why?"
"Because yours is the only one that is truly peaceful!" [At this point it occurred to me to wonder whether the boy here is the "he" discussed while laying in the crop circle and Skyle is here to follow the I character's suggestion of what to do about the boy's shadow. I'm still not sure though.]
"How would you know?"
"Because every other character has something to do with fighting, but yours is different!"
"But being different isn't good. It just means no one wants it."
"I want it!" [This could, in context, be an example of an adult intentionally speaking a child's language to communicate to a child. But she also could have phrased this in a more explanatory or convincing way, which as a side effect would seem more sophisticated.]
"But you don't even know what it is!" [Er, weren't we talking about the red riding hood costume? He knows what that is. Or have I completely lost track of which line of dialogue is whose? ]
"Then show me!"
"Alright..."

With that said, the boy started to put on his costume, saying:

"I am a witch that can go into people's mind to help them when they are sad. Everyone is afraid of me, for fear that their secret would be known. But I don't give up, because I know that somewhere, someone will understand..." [With this meta twist I lost track of how I am supposed to be interpreting the scene. This has nothing to do with being childlike, I mention it because it echoed in my mind with what Joe Cooper was just saying about me not giving clues about how the reader should feel about Cara].

When the boy turned around, he was wearing a blue flat cap, a white shirt loosely tuck into blue jeans that ran down to a pair of canvas sneakers.

"Oh my..." Little Red Riding Hood dropped her basket.

"It is pretty boring isn't it. There is no monster to fight, no conspiracy to uncover... just the actual problems that make people sad that they don't admit or try to solve..." the boy continued, "In any case, I can't enter because I only know her first name. [This is the reverse issue, a character who is supposedly a young boy is speaking in an adult way not quite fitting for the mental image of him I've built up. Perhaps the perception of him is supposed to change though.]

The boy reached into his pocket and showed her the piece of paper. It was a form, but nothing was filled except a first name.

* * * * * *

Dialogues: (see above)
1. A shadow's words
2. Skyle would try
3. Skyle as Little Red Riding Hood
4. Little Red explains

I'd like to add that I also appreciate efforts to liven up the forum; I like to see things thrive.

@JoeCooper Haha, I can see the parallel with Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. If the 'prince' had been an eccentric girl instead of an urban boy it would have been extremely similar to what I had in mind. It's also good for me to be reminded that the structures and tropes of romance which are obvious to me from experience are just not going to be there in the minds of some readers, and they'll naturally substitute with whatever other context they have that seems relevant, which can easily take things off in a strange direction. In my previous experience with getting a poor reaction to the kidnapper woman the audience was also not primarily romance fans, and thus would have been missing the basic expectation that a romance heroine is ALWAYS a decent and caring person whose actions ALWAYS eventually work out for the best (a happy ending is 100% required), even if she happens to be a thief or an assassin or in this case an eavesdropper and kidnapper. In many cases the humor in a romance novel comes from the circumstances that force a basically nice person into taking dubious or unlikely actions.[color="#1C2837"]

I'm glad you don't consider it a waste of time to think about and comment on the ideas of someone not aiming for publication, or that someone who doesn't regularly produce fiction is not a real writer, or that attempting to discuss a prewriting synopsis is either "cheating" or "impossible to do usefully". I've heard all these complaints before. I of course have no problem helping someone aim for publication because that's what the vast majority of my experience has been in the context of. Most members of the writing community regard publication (specifically including payment) for a work of fiction as the real goal of writing, the real finish line of the marathon of drafts, revisions, querying, getting rejections, promotion, and all that. At one point I wanted to do that, mainly because I needed the money and thought it would be great fun to sit on panels at science fiction conventions and visit English classes as a guest local writer. Nowadays, I admire other people who have the drive to do that, but I also have come to respect my own lack of interest in that goal rather than feeling guilty about being slower and less motivated than other writers, especially younger ones.

I still question whether most of my writing has any relevance to this forum. I do have one project which has no erotic content, so that's an obvious candidate. It's a science fiction alien archeology thing with a mild interracial romance between the two main characters. On the other hand it's one of the most fully developed of my projects and yet not one of the most interesting, so I don't have a lot of questions about it besides "It seems like there's nothing much happening in the first half, can I fix that without fundamentally altering the concept?" And "How does the foozle they are all looking for work anyway?" Not really ideal discussion/critique questions.

The post is getting to long so I am only replying to the major misunderstanding. I think the missed understanding can be fixed in the following ways.

Miss 1: The two scenes are consecutive.
In the first scene (Wheat field), Skyle discussed about the shadow and decide to let the shadow knows that she understands. In the second scene (carnival), Skyle is in the shadow's mind talking to the shadow. I think what I could do is to add a sentence fragment in the beginning of the second scene:

[quote name='After']Skyle re-entered the shadow's mind. This time she found herself in a crowded place like a carnival. There was a big tent. In the tent there was an announcer with a top hat, the announcer said:

Miss 2: Shadows are stuck not because they can't think, but because they have blind-spots in their thinking
Shadows are stuck not because they can't think, but because they have blind-spots in their thinking. In cases like this decision matrices don't help because to use this type of decision matrix, you need to know what criteria matter and evaluate their weights. If you have a blind-spot, you can crutch out the numbers but you will not wholeheartedly agree with the result. In your heart you know that something is amiss, but you can't pin-point it. You could go on with that decision but it still leaves a hole in your heart unanswered. That is what a shadow is. Shadows are shadow not because they have no clue, but because they do have some clue, but something doesn't feel right. They may be doing the right thing but their motivation might be misaligned and they feel empty doing something that they know to be the right thing. Solving shadows isn't just about making the right choice, but explaining to the self fully why it is the right choice.

In the story, the author knows this. So this explanation could be included in the wheat field scene just after the player choices.

[quote name='After']
I thought:

a) He should just say it. Then at least he won't regret for not saying it.
b) He should learn how to say it in a way that people would listen
c) He should believe that people could learn on their own
d) He should believe that for some lessons, people could only learn from their own experience.
e) He should believe that what was an ordeal for him wasn't an ordeal for someone else
f) He should do something so that the others wouldn't get near that situation in the first place
g) ...

I said: "Do you agree with what he said?"

"I think so, why?" She said.
"Maybe he just wants to know that someone understands."

Shadows are shadows not because they can't make decisions in general, but because they have blind-spots in their thinking. Sometimes, they may even be doing the right thing, but without the right understanding, they feel empty doing it, but their rationale convinces them that they should keep doing it despite how they feel. Solving shadows isn't just about making the right choice, but also explaining to the self fully why it is the right choice. This time, perhaps the shadow isn't trying to tell everyone his belief. Just one person might be enough.

"Is that it?" Skyle asked.
"Worth a try."
"Alright!

Skyle closed her eyes. She was going back.

* * *

Skyle found herself in a crowded place like a carnival. There was a big tent. In the tent there was an announcer with a top hat, the announcer said: