Following Diablo 3's announcement of dropping skill points, there was a large turmoil where people debated whether it was a good or a bad thing, and whether the system they've developed is better.
I think there is a lot of good with their approach, and I've been attempting to do something similar with one of my game systems for the past couple years (to no avail).
Currently, I'm having each character unlock skills as they level up.
Each character can equip up to X skills at once to use in combat (turn-based).
When choosing a skill, the player can select one of its variants, for example:
- Fire's variants would be: Fireball (single target), Inflame (single target, chance to set enemy on fire), Engulf (targets all enemies), InnerFlame (Heals self in the process) etc.
There are a number of ways that I was thinking of implementing these variants:
- You find them in optional quests, in the form of items that must be equipped.
- You find them in optional quests, in the form of books that teach them to you.
- You learn them naturally as you level up.
For some reason, I'm not satisfied with that.
The intent of my game is to play strategically, and I feel like this is an untapped area I should expand on in some way and the current design just isn't elegant. The idea of Diablo 3's runes seems like a good way to do this, but I most certainly don't want to strictly copy that, and somehow, I feel it may be a tad limited for what I'm trying to achieve.
The endgame is to give the player control over his strategy out of combat, where he spends some time thinking what works best together and how to be ready facing most enemy archetypes and subsystems.
The battles themselves are 50% execution and 50% strategy (which occurs outside of combat per se).
Any thoughts on how I could make this work?
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RPG: Skills
August 02, 2011 02:23 PM
The fact you were there before they invented the wheel doesn't make you any better than the wheel nor does it entitle you to claim property over the wheel. Being there at the right time just isn't enough, you need to take part into it.
I have a blog!
I have a blog!
560
August 02, 2011 05:42 PM
Been thinking about similar systems for a while too. The main issue is not knowing what's coming ahead when deciding which skills to equip. If your encounters require specific skills to be used to counter the enemy, this will lead to trial and error for the player until he figures out what to use. If you allow any build to beat any encounter, then you lose the strategic part because the player uses whatever for the whole game. This is probably why Diablo 3 removed permanent builds. Now, they can design harder encounters that require specific skills.
Assuming this is a standard jRPG, this could work decently if you slowly introduce the particularities of a dungeon and do not change them until the boss is beaten. If the player goes into the dungeon without the appropriate skill setup, he'll barely survive, but know how the enemies fight, what element they use and so on. He will be able to refine his skill selection until he can handle tougher encounters that would wipe him out without the appropriate skill setup. This should all come naturally without a Game Over screen. FF13 was built in a similar way. You would always see monsters in small packs before they threw 8 of them at you so you could adapt your paradigms accordingly.
I think the difficulty would be with coming up with enough unique skills which all have their role and where the player can figure out when they are best used.
Assuming this is a standard jRPG, this could work decently if you slowly introduce the particularities of a dungeon and do not change them until the boss is beaten. If the player goes into the dungeon without the appropriate skill setup, he'll barely survive, but know how the enemies fight, what element they use and so on. He will be able to refine his skill selection until he can handle tougher encounters that would wipe him out without the appropriate skill setup. This should all come naturally without a Game Over screen. FF13 was built in a similar way. You would always see monsters in small packs before they threw 8 of them at you so you could adapt your paradigms accordingly.
I think the difficulty would be with coming up with enough unique skills which all have their role and where the player can figure out when they are best used.
August 02, 2011 05:49 PM
I was intending for players to be able to change their strategy from within the dungeon inbetween encounters, so indeed, the few early encounters would clue them as to what may be optimal, but I don't want to use a strict 'best strategy' system where the player has to guess. I want the system to be wide enough of its own that some kind of emergent gameplay arises and the player is rewarded for his craftiness.
The danger to this system, and my strong emphasis on sidequests providing additional options, is that the player who will playthrough the game may either face a challenge (in which case, the upside of sidequests is to reduce difficulty level) or be able to beat the game (in which case sidequest rewards bring nothing relevant).
I'm also devising a system to avoid 'game overs' based on trial and error. Deaths are to be expected in this game, but will not reset your progress altogether. This is slightly influenced by games such as Radiant Historia.
I think the system I'm aiming for is 'few' skills, but ways to mess with them.
That's what I like about the upcoming D3 system. You have a skill that you like, and ways to interpolate it.
For example, you like the fire spell. But what do you like about it? The fact is deals fire-aligned elemental damage or the recurring damage of being ablazed by it? You can alter the skill in such a way that you capitalize on one of its aspects. To me, that is the key element to expanding upon emergent gameplay here...
The danger to this system, and my strong emphasis on sidequests providing additional options, is that the player who will playthrough the game may either face a challenge (in which case, the upside of sidequests is to reduce difficulty level) or be able to beat the game (in which case sidequest rewards bring nothing relevant).
I'm also devising a system to avoid 'game overs' based on trial and error. Deaths are to be expected in this game, but will not reset your progress altogether. This is slightly influenced by games such as Radiant Historia.
I think the system I'm aiming for is 'few' skills, but ways to mess with them.
That's what I like about the upcoming D3 system. You have a skill that you like, and ways to interpolate it.
For example, you like the fire spell. But what do you like about it? The fact is deals fire-aligned elemental damage or the recurring damage of being ablazed by it? You can alter the skill in such a way that you capitalize on one of its aspects. To me, that is the key element to expanding upon emergent gameplay here...
The fact you were there before they invented the wheel doesn't make you any better than the wheel nor does it entitle you to claim property over the wheel. Being there at the right time just isn't enough, you need to take part into it.
I have a blog!
I have a blog!
103
August 03, 2011 01:42 PM
Learning Skills - Grandia Series
I like the way the Grandia series dealt with skills. In Grandia, you have 3 types of different skills and you "learn" them from different "sources".
1) "Hero Skill" - Each character has their own unique skills that no other character has, which consumes SP. The more you use these skills, the more they "Level Up".
2) Magic - You have to equip "Mana Eggs" to the character if you want the character to use Magic-Type skills. To "Level Up" a "Mana Egg", you need to combine two of them together and create a third one. Sometimes a combination will create a more effective skill compared to their normal versions.
3) Vellums/Books - Passive abilities are also equipped in similar ways as the "Mana Egg". These abilities "level up" in the same way as "Hero Skills".
Note that both Mana Eggs and Vellums/Books are interchangeable, and any character can equip them. It allows for some creative character-crafting.
Learning Skills - Part II
Instead of having characters outright learn the skills from their skill tree, perhaps you can combine skill-learning with equipment-crafting.
1) Give each piece of equipment a "Crystal Slots".
2) Make "Skills" into "Crystals". (Ideally 1 Crystal should only contain 1 Skill.)
3) Allow players to insert and remove these "Crystals" from their equipment freely.
4) A character will only have access to skills if the crystals are inserted into their equipment's "Crystal Slots". (Some restrictions should apply, such as Offensive Crystals can only be inserted into weapons).
5) You can "stack" similar "Crystals" to increase their effectiveness. (I.E. "Heal Crystal" + "Heal Crystal" = +1% to Heal amount)
6) Additionally, equipment can have Passive skills attached to which increases the effectiveness of "Crystal Skills". (I.E. Spear comes with "+10 Damage to Thrusting-Attacks")
Admittedly this method of skill-learning means the character-building aspect is completely dependent on equipment now, which brings me to the additional suggestion below:
1) Character-Skill-Tree involves learning how to equip weapons and armors. (Sword Mastery, Spear Mastery, Plate Armor, Leather Armor, etc. etc.)
2) Leveling up these skills allows the character to deal more damage with specific weapons, or reduce more damage with specific armor.
3) Alternatively, leveling up these skills allow players to attack and move faster.
4) Or reducing the "Mana Cost" of "Crystal Skills" that is inserted into a specific piece of equipment. (I.E. Sword Mastery reduces Mana Cost for Sword-Crystal-Skills.)
5) Maybe you can choose "All the above"?
"Deck-Building" GameplayWith regards to the ability to survive various encounters with all skill-build, consider something along the lines of "Deck-Building" the character's skill by giving players different "Modes" to customize.
1) Each "Mode" contains X hotkeys which players can equip their skills to. (Meaning you can only use skills that are attached to those Hotkeys during combat).
2) Characters can only equip one skill to one Mode. (I.E. If you equip "Heal" to Mode-1, you cannot equip heal to any other Modes).
3) Allow players to switch "Modes" during combat (with costs, such as using up an entire Turn just to change modes).
That way, you encourage your players to create various "Modes" via their hotkeys setup. If they want access to a certain skill, they must give up the skills they have at hand, and must use a different skill layout to defeat the encounter. You let the players decide when and how the skills are used, as well as letting the players decide the pros and cons for each of their "Modes".
Encounters can be made much more difficult by forcing players to use certain skills during combat. (I.E. If players mapped all Elemental Magic into one Mode and the encounter requires them to Heal, their damage output will be reduced greatly because they are forced to constantly Heal themselves in a different mode that does not have Elemental Magic. If they combined some Elemental Magic with Heal, they will be less efficient when faced with monsters with an element that they cannot deal with in their current "Elemental Magic-Heal Mode").
Players will be spending time "Mode-Building" to ensure they can survive an encounter with their limited skillset, or create a Modes that can buy them sufficient time to allow them to switch into a more effective Mode during combat.
I like the way the Grandia series dealt with skills. In Grandia, you have 3 types of different skills and you "learn" them from different "sources".
1) "Hero Skill" - Each character has their own unique skills that no other character has, which consumes SP. The more you use these skills, the more they "Level Up".
2) Magic - You have to equip "Mana Eggs" to the character if you want the character to use Magic-Type skills. To "Level Up" a "Mana Egg", you need to combine two of them together and create a third one. Sometimes a combination will create a more effective skill compared to their normal versions.
3) Vellums/Books - Passive abilities are also equipped in similar ways as the "Mana Egg". These abilities "level up" in the same way as "Hero Skills".
Note that both Mana Eggs and Vellums/Books are interchangeable, and any character can equip them. It allows for some creative character-crafting.
Learning Skills - Part II
Instead of having characters outright learn the skills from their skill tree, perhaps you can combine skill-learning with equipment-crafting.
1) Give each piece of equipment a "Crystal Slots".
2) Make "Skills" into "Crystals". (Ideally 1 Crystal should only contain 1 Skill.)
3) Allow players to insert and remove these "Crystals" from their equipment freely.
4) A character will only have access to skills if the crystals are inserted into their equipment's "Crystal Slots". (Some restrictions should apply, such as Offensive Crystals can only be inserted into weapons).
5) You can "stack" similar "Crystals" to increase their effectiveness. (I.E. "Heal Crystal" + "Heal Crystal" = +1% to Heal amount)
6) Additionally, equipment can have Passive skills attached to which increases the effectiveness of "Crystal Skills". (I.E. Spear comes with "+10 Damage to Thrusting-Attacks")
Admittedly this method of skill-learning means the character-building aspect is completely dependent on equipment now, which brings me to the additional suggestion below:
1) Character-Skill-Tree involves learning how to equip weapons and armors. (Sword Mastery, Spear Mastery, Plate Armor, Leather Armor, etc. etc.)
2) Leveling up these skills allows the character to deal more damage with specific weapons, or reduce more damage with specific armor.
3) Alternatively, leveling up these skills allow players to attack and move faster.
4) Or reducing the "Mana Cost" of "Crystal Skills" that is inserted into a specific piece of equipment. (I.E. Sword Mastery reduces Mana Cost for Sword-Crystal-Skills.)
5) Maybe you can choose "All the above"?
"Deck-Building" GameplayWith regards to the ability to survive various encounters with all skill-build, consider something along the lines of "Deck-Building" the character's skill by giving players different "Modes" to customize.
1) Each "Mode" contains X hotkeys which players can equip their skills to. (Meaning you can only use skills that are attached to those Hotkeys during combat).
2) Characters can only equip one skill to one Mode. (I.E. If you equip "Heal" to Mode-1, you cannot equip heal to any other Modes).
3) Allow players to switch "Modes" during combat (with costs, such as using up an entire Turn just to change modes).
That way, you encourage your players to create various "Modes" via their hotkeys setup. If they want access to a certain skill, they must give up the skills they have at hand, and must use a different skill layout to defeat the encounter. You let the players decide when and how the skills are used, as well as letting the players decide the pros and cons for each of their "Modes".
Encounters can be made much more difficult by forcing players to use certain skills during combat. (I.E. If players mapped all Elemental Magic into one Mode and the encounter requires them to Heal, their damage output will be reduced greatly because they are forced to constantly Heal themselves in a different mode that does not have Elemental Magic. If they combined some Elemental Magic with Heal, they will be less efficient when faced with monsters with an element that they cannot deal with in their current "Elemental Magic-Heal Mode").
Players will be spending time "Mode-Building" to ensure they can survive an encounter with their limited skillset, or create a Modes that can buy them sufficient time to allow them to switch into a more effective Mode during combat.
1,164
August 03, 2011 02:02 PM
Your system sounds very much like the Guild Wars system. Check it out, it is one of the more interesting systems. I read that it was inspired by Magic: The Gathering where much of the strategy comes from selecting a limited pool of options (the deck in M:TG and the skills in GW) in advance of knowing what your opponent will be (at least for PvP). Good teams had to coordinate combos between players because no one player could have everything at once (even though the system let you trade in practically anything when in town).
August 03, 2011 05:16 PM
@Taneugene
Very interesting stuff you've got there indeed.
For the MTG-related aspect, I've already devised a very similar system (in fact, nearly identical) but it is reserved to a single character. I'm not willing, at this stage, to extend this onto all characters. I believe it can be somewhat complex to play with, and I'd rather have a significant portion of the game play out more 'classically'. Still a great thought.
There are some thoughts I'm on the fence with:
1 - The more you use a skill, the more it levels up. This is a neat idea on paper, but to me, it feels like it works best in a game like The Elder Scrolls. In a console retro-rpg, I feel like this could lead to some intense grinding (fight weaklings with powerful spell just to level it up). I also feel like this removes a lot of focus from actual leveling up. You could have a weak level but powerful spell and get along just fine (if not for the steep mp cost). Neat idea, but I just feel it is a bit out of place in the specific genre I'm trying to work with.
2 - Your proposition (Character-Skill-Tree involves learning how to equip weapons and armors.) feels a bit dull. The game project I'm working with is attempting to build a strong characterization of characters (duh) through gameplay. If all characters have access to all skills through equipment, this is somewhat breaking this idea. Adding restrictions to this wouldn't work very fine. This is a tough call because I actually liked the idea of crystal slots, but here is how I envisioned it:
- You have 'crystal slots' and 'equipment crystal slots'. Putting a crystal in the crystal slot gives you an ability, whereas putting it in an equipment crystal slot gives some static/passive bonuses to your characters aka:
Fire crystal gives you fire 1 spell, or, if coupled with your sword, increases your default attack's power by 1% fire damage.
I'm trying to find a way to bring this system closer to character-driven skill set. I think the idea has a lot of potential, but I'm just not sure how to fix this.
@Ezbez
I've had a look at the GW systems back in the day when I was still early in design, and I kinda didn't get it. From what I read, it seems like there's just no way to toss some fireball! I saw a lot of hexes and buffs, but that's about it. Probably, I didn't play the game and that is impeding my understanding of the system.
If that is not too much, could you pinpoint me to a comprehensive explanation of the system? The GW wiki got me lost (I know...) I'm not being lazy, I swear!
Very interesting stuff you've got there indeed.
For the MTG-related aspect, I've already devised a very similar system (in fact, nearly identical) but it is reserved to a single character. I'm not willing, at this stage, to extend this onto all characters. I believe it can be somewhat complex to play with, and I'd rather have a significant portion of the game play out more 'classically'. Still a great thought.
There are some thoughts I'm on the fence with:
1 - The more you use a skill, the more it levels up. This is a neat idea on paper, but to me, it feels like it works best in a game like The Elder Scrolls. In a console retro-rpg, I feel like this could lead to some intense grinding (fight weaklings with powerful spell just to level it up). I also feel like this removes a lot of focus from actual leveling up. You could have a weak level but powerful spell and get along just fine (if not for the steep mp cost). Neat idea, but I just feel it is a bit out of place in the specific genre I'm trying to work with.
2 - Your proposition (Character-Skill-Tree involves learning how to equip weapons and armors.) feels a bit dull. The game project I'm working with is attempting to build a strong characterization of characters (duh) through gameplay. If all characters have access to all skills through equipment, this is somewhat breaking this idea. Adding restrictions to this wouldn't work very fine. This is a tough call because I actually liked the idea of crystal slots, but here is how I envisioned it:
- You have 'crystal slots' and 'equipment crystal slots'. Putting a crystal in the crystal slot gives you an ability, whereas putting it in an equipment crystal slot gives some static/passive bonuses to your characters aka:
Fire crystal gives you fire 1 spell, or, if coupled with your sword, increases your default attack's power by 1% fire damage.
I'm trying to find a way to bring this system closer to character-driven skill set. I think the idea has a lot of potential, but I'm just not sure how to fix this.
@Ezbez
I've had a look at the GW systems back in the day when I was still early in design, and I kinda didn't get it. From what I read, it seems like there's just no way to toss some fireball! I saw a lot of hexes and buffs, but that's about it. Probably, I didn't play the game and that is impeding my understanding of the system.
If that is not too much, could you pinpoint me to a comprehensive explanation of the system? The GW wiki got me lost (I know...) I'm not being lazy, I swear!
The fact you were there before they invented the wheel doesn't make you any better than the wheel nor does it entitle you to claim property over the wheel. Being there at the right time just isn't enough, you need to take part into it.
I have a blog!
I have a blog!
103
August 04, 2011 02:35 PM
@Taneugene
Very interesting stuff you've got there indeed.
For the MTG-related aspect, I've already devised a very similar system (in fact, nearly identical) but it is reserved to a single character. I'm not willing, at this stage, to extend this onto all characters. I believe it can be somewhat complex to play with, and I'd rather have a significant portion of the game play out more 'classically'. Still a great thought.
There are some thoughts I'm on the fence with:
1 - The more you use a skill, the more it levels up. This is a neat idea on paper, but to me, it feels like it works best in a game like The Elder Scrolls. In a console retro-rpg, I feel like this could lead to some intense grinding (fight weaklings with powerful spell just to level it up). I also feel like this removes a lot of focus from actual leveling up. You could have a weak level but powerful spell and get along just fine (if not for the steep mp cost). Neat idea, but I just feel it is a bit out of place in the specific genre I'm trying to work with.
2 - Your proposition (Character-Skill-Tree involves learning how to equip weapons and armors.) feels a bit dull. The game project I'm working with is attempting to build a strong characterization of characters (duh) through gameplay. If all characters have access to all skills through equipment, this is somewhat breaking this idea. Adding restrictions to this wouldn't work very fine. This is a tough call because I actually liked the idea of crystal slots, but here is how I envisioned it:
- You have 'crystal slots' and 'equipment crystal slots'. Putting a crystal in the crystal slot gives you an ability, whereas putting it in an equipment crystal slot gives some static/passive bonuses to your characters aka:
Fire crystal gives you fire 1 spell, or, if coupled with your sword, increases your default attack's power by 1% fire damage.
I'm trying to find a way to bring this system closer to character-driven skill set. I think the idea has a lot of potential, but I'm just not sure how to fix this.
In replying to your post previously I've forgotten to ask an important question: Single-Player or Multi-Player?
Regarding (1), I didn't mean for it to be the way you described it. My original intention was to allow the skill to increase in effectiveness and efficiency by stacking the same "crystals" together. You do not need to grind your skills to level it up. You level it by farming the "crystals" that match the skills you want to upgrade, or you can buy it from NPCs. (Depending on how you want players to obtain those crystals)
For the first part of (2), it is meant to be dull because all the interesting stuff is in the "Crystals" (and the equipment, to a certain extent). If you were to make them less dull, power-level would be a concern. Players will farm and grind (whether by accident or on purpose). If you make your character-skill interesting, you are (arguably) giving the characters twice the amount of power from grinding. Once from the "Crystal" drop, and the other from "Character Level Up". Also, you would have to create even more unique skills so as to make both "Character Skill" and "Crystal Skill" equally interesting throughout the game. IF you were to also include what you yourself suggested, you risk downplaying the "Crystal Skills" and make them become "Stat Points Crystal". If players have access to skills from their Characters, and those skills are sufficiently powerful, the "Crystals" may be relegated to become the Jewelcrafting of WoW. (I.E. "Crystals" are farmed for min-maxing their Character-skills).
The problem of characterization can be (easily) solved with an "Crystal Identification" skill unique to each character. Lets say your party consists of a "Warrior", a "Priest" and a "Mage". When you obtain these "Crystals", they are in "Ore" forms and you need to "refine" or "identify" it to obtain the skills. Lets say you obtain a "Water Crystal/Ore". If you let the Priest "identify" it, it reveals a "Refresh" skill, a Heal-Over-Time. If you let the Mage "identify" it, it becomes "Waterball". If you let your Warrior "identify" it, it becomes "Ice Armor". Once a "Crystal" is identified by a character, it becomes class-bound (or Character Bound) to the class that identifies it. This way, you retain characterization of skills because each character would reveal a different skill even if they are "identifying" the same "Crystals".
If you want to take this one step further, give each "Character" an "Element Mastery". When they have X "Crystals" of Y Element in their Equipment, they gain an "Elemental Bonus" for their "Element Mastery". The Element Mastery reward can be anything from "Character deals more damage with X Element Skills", or "Character gains Y Skill of X Element", or "Every spell the character cast deals Z additonal damage of X Element".
August 04, 2011 05:03 PM
Single-Player.
(1)
I agree with the way you want the crystal stacking to be some way of increasing the level of skills.
The downside to this sub-system is that finding a crystal, as far as I understand, does not give the player a choice. Technically, a 'healing' crystal can only level another healing crystal, and nothing else. Making gems universal is no better as this is essentially replacing skill points with crystal points so to speak. The only advantage is that they are found instead of given through leveling up. While this does emphasize questing (which is what I'm aiming for) it makes it mandatory unless there are many on the main path.
I really want to avoid 'caps' on the main path. If you've played Chrono Cross, you might be familiar with how they've capped leveling and skills. I really feel like this breaks the feeling of evolving your character. It *does* annihilate grinding, but at what cost?
(2)
The class-specific orb identification process looks good. However, because it cannot be rolled-back, players can make 'bad' decisions they will regret and be unable to undo. In Diablo, you'd often stumble across a moment in the game where you would wish you could reset all of your skill points and put these points into a latter skill you find more useful. What if you thought identifying the water orb with your mage was a good idea (giving you some water-based attack) but stumble later on a fire-based orb which promises great attack power for your mage, and you'd wish you could turn the water-orb back into some much-needed healing spell to support your party?
Perhaps the orbs could simply have different effects depending on which class equips it, but never be class-bound?
At a given time, what I need is full offense, so I'll make it so that each orb is equipped to each character in order to maximize their power. But later on, I need to switch to a defensive stance, where I can equip orbs in a way that I acquire healing/buff skills out of everyone?
(1)
I agree with the way you want the crystal stacking to be some way of increasing the level of skills.
The downside to this sub-system is that finding a crystal, as far as I understand, does not give the player a choice. Technically, a 'healing' crystal can only level another healing crystal, and nothing else. Making gems universal is no better as this is essentially replacing skill points with crystal points so to speak. The only advantage is that they are found instead of given through leveling up. While this does emphasize questing (which is what I'm aiming for) it makes it mandatory unless there are many on the main path.
I really want to avoid 'caps' on the main path. If you've played Chrono Cross, you might be familiar with how they've capped leveling and skills. I really feel like this breaks the feeling of evolving your character. It *does* annihilate grinding, but at what cost?
(2)
The class-specific orb identification process looks good. However, because it cannot be rolled-back, players can make 'bad' decisions they will regret and be unable to undo. In Diablo, you'd often stumble across a moment in the game where you would wish you could reset all of your skill points and put these points into a latter skill you find more useful. What if you thought identifying the water orb with your mage was a good idea (giving you some water-based attack) but stumble later on a fire-based orb which promises great attack power for your mage, and you'd wish you could turn the water-orb back into some much-needed healing spell to support your party?
Perhaps the orbs could simply have different effects depending on which class equips it, but never be class-bound?
At a given time, what I need is full offense, so I'll make it so that each orb is equipped to each character in order to maximize their power. But later on, I need to switch to a defensive stance, where I can equip orbs in a way that I acquire healing/buff skills out of everyone?
The fact you were there before they invented the wheel doesn't make you any better than the wheel nor does it entitle you to claim property over the wheel. Being there at the right time just isn't enough, you need to take part into it.
I have a blog!
I have a blog!
103
August 04, 2011 07:43 PM
Another Question: Turn-based or action-based?
(1)
What if instead of "Skill Specific Crystals" being used to level it up, you use the "Ore" form to level up the skill instead? (I.E. The "Heal" skill is derived from a "Water Crystal", so you can upgrade the "Heal" skill by "feeding" the Heal skill with "Water Ores").
Alternatively, allow for 2 ways to upgrade a skill. One is via the "Ore" method, where players feed the skill with raw "Crystals", and another where you feed the skill with "Identified Crystal" corresponding to the skill being fed. The first method (via the "Ore") should have a lower yield because it is the risk-free method to improve a skill. The second method (via "Identified Crystal") should have a higher yield per "Crystal" invested because it is not often that you can "identify" a "crystal" to correspond to a skill.
With regards to skill cap, read below.
(2)
Can largely be solved if you have those "Crystals" drop frequently (2-3 crystals per encounter, rate can be adjusted according to how much content the player must get through to finish the game). The crystals should be common enough to allow all characters to learn every single skill available to their class respectively, but rare enough so that the player must farm them for a considerable amount of time before they can max-out the power output of every single skill for every single character. This can be achieved by having a newly learned skill have 50% of their full power (I.E. "Heal" at 100% heals for 100% of the character's maximum health, so at 50% it heals half the character's maximum health). Each "Crystal" being fed to the skill gives a small amount of improvement (0.5% to 1%, maybe even less? Or apply the law of diminishing returns). To do this effectively, your encounters should be based around the players having skills at 50% power. (If you want to make it challenging throughout the game, allow encounters to scale according to how many "Crystals" the players have obtained when they engage in an encounter).
With regards to you Mage/Priest scenario: Ideally your Mage should have all Elemental-Magic available in their skill setup anyways. Having your Mage identifying the "Water Crystal" into a Water-based-attack is a good thing to begin with. Your Mage will need that Water-attack somewhere down the line. Players should/will continuously pick up "Crystals" throughout their encounters, so there should be no shortage of "Water Crystals" at all (or any "Crystals", for that matter).
Afterthoughts:
I see nothing wrong with restricting player choices. It promotes good decision-making when players must weigh both pros and cons for each decision. After all, strategy is about decision making. And making bad decisions should result in some sort of repercussion.
Also, how do you reconciliate an RPG with strategy? RPG by definition allows players to do whatever they please, and whatever decisions they make should allow them to clear the game regardless of how good or bad the decision is. Strategy, on the other hand, requires the player to fail an encounter if they picked the wrong strategy to employ against a particular enemy. The way most RPGs are designed, players can brute force their way through every encounter if they max out every aspect of their character, throwing strategy right out the window. In fact, by the end-game of most RPGs, Magic and Status-Effects are nigh useless because almost all the encounters in the end-game are immune to those things (Boss-encounters, regardless of levels, are especially notorious for this). The only way to win those encounters is via physical beatdown. In addition, the end-game encounters have much more powerful Magic and Status-Effects embedded into their attack-cycle, forcing you to don Anti-Element and Anti-Status armors. At this point, you can't help but to think "Strategy? What strategy?".
(1)
What if instead of "Skill Specific Crystals" being used to level it up, you use the "Ore" form to level up the skill instead? (I.E. The "Heal" skill is derived from a "Water Crystal", so you can upgrade the "Heal" skill by "feeding" the Heal skill with "Water Ores").
Alternatively, allow for 2 ways to upgrade a skill. One is via the "Ore" method, where players feed the skill with raw "Crystals", and another where you feed the skill with "Identified Crystal" corresponding to the skill being fed. The first method (via the "Ore") should have a lower yield because it is the risk-free method to improve a skill. The second method (via "Identified Crystal") should have a higher yield per "Crystal" invested because it is not often that you can "identify" a "crystal" to correspond to a skill.
With regards to skill cap, read below.
(2)
Can largely be solved if you have those "Crystals" drop frequently (2-3 crystals per encounter, rate can be adjusted according to how much content the player must get through to finish the game). The crystals should be common enough to allow all characters to learn every single skill available to their class respectively, but rare enough so that the player must farm them for a considerable amount of time before they can max-out the power output of every single skill for every single character. This can be achieved by having a newly learned skill have 50% of their full power (I.E. "Heal" at 100% heals for 100% of the character's maximum health, so at 50% it heals half the character's maximum health). Each "Crystal" being fed to the skill gives a small amount of improvement (0.5% to 1%, maybe even less? Or apply the law of diminishing returns). To do this effectively, your encounters should be based around the players having skills at 50% power. (If you want to make it challenging throughout the game, allow encounters to scale according to how many "Crystals" the players have obtained when they engage in an encounter).
With regards to you Mage/Priest scenario: Ideally your Mage should have all Elemental-Magic available in their skill setup anyways. Having your Mage identifying the "Water Crystal" into a Water-based-attack is a good thing to begin with. Your Mage will need that Water-attack somewhere down the line. Players should/will continuously pick up "Crystals" throughout their encounters, so there should be no shortage of "Water Crystals" at all (or any "Crystals", for that matter).
Afterthoughts:
I see nothing wrong with restricting player choices. It promotes good decision-making when players must weigh both pros and cons for each decision. After all, strategy is about decision making. And making bad decisions should result in some sort of repercussion.
Also, how do you reconciliate an RPG with strategy? RPG by definition allows players to do whatever they please, and whatever decisions they make should allow them to clear the game regardless of how good or bad the decision is. Strategy, on the other hand, requires the player to fail an encounter if they picked the wrong strategy to employ against a particular enemy. The way most RPGs are designed, players can brute force their way through every encounter if they max out every aspect of their character, throwing strategy right out the window. In fact, by the end-game of most RPGs, Magic and Status-Effects are nigh useless because almost all the encounters in the end-game are immune to those things (Boss-encounters, regardless of levels, are especially notorious for this). The only way to win those encounters is via physical beatdown. In addition, the end-game encounters have much more powerful Magic and Status-Effects embedded into their attack-cycle, forcing you to don Anti-Element and Anti-Status armors. At this point, you can't help but to think "Strategy? What strategy?".
560
August 04, 2011 08:06 PM
Also, how do you reconciliate an RPG with strategy? RPG by definition allows players to do whatever they please, and whatever decisions they make should allow them to clear the game regardless of how good or bad the decision is. Strategy, on the other hand, requires the player to fail an encounter if they picked the wrong strategy to employ against a particular enemy. The way most RPGs are designed, players can brute force their way through every encounter if they max out every aspect of their character, throwing strategy right out the window. In fact, by the end-game of most RPGs, Magic and Status-Effects are nigh useless because almost all the encounters in the end-game are immune to those things (Boss-encounters, regardless of levels, are especially notorious for this). The only way to win those encounters is via physical beatdown. In addition, the end-game encounters have much more powerful Magic and Status-Effects embedded into their attack-cycle, forcing you to don Anti-Element and Anti-Status armors. At this point, you can't help but to think "Strategy? What strategy?".
I have to disagree. Combats in RPGs are all about strategic planning and tactical execution. The brute force wins all phenomenon is caused by the shallow combat system used by old RPGs. Some RPGs have added a layer on top of the classic combat system, like Lost Odyssey. The early game is highly strategic due to the back line defense mechanic. You can't hit Attack forever and plow through everything. It sorts of break down toward the end though because you can equip everything and become godly. As long as you keep meaningful choices throughout the game, the strategic element should be there.
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