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Original post by owl
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Original post by Silvermyst
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Original post by owl
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Original post by Silvermyst
I know I wouldn't take up arms if my government told me to do so. That's somewhat standing in the way of my US citizenship. The application requires you to swear you'll take up arms if told to do so.
So are you going to Swear it? Or are you going to quit all what that society has achieved thanks (in part) to those who took arms for them?
You can swear that you'll take arms if the time comes, but nobody is making you swear that you'll shoot someone with them. That's what the freedom argument there is all about.
I think the spirit is to be willing to die for what you love, more than to kill for it.
I will never swear something I don't mean. And believing in the things that the United States (supposedly) stands for, it's hard for me to even imagine questions like that being on the application form. Note that I'm more than willing to pick up arms... just not by force. If I want to change my permanent residency status to citizenship, I'll have to write an extensive accompanying letter explaining my answers to such questions as "Have you ever advocated the overthrow of any government by force of violence?" (Yes. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."; Afghanistan, Iraq, even the United States hypothetically), "Have you ever been a member of a communist party (No, but I think a truely free society is able to accept any beliefs) or a terrorist organization?" (No, but would people who have really answer "yes"?), "Have you ever persecuted any person because of race, religion, nationality, social group, or political opinion?" (Not consciously, but I'm sure I have at times been guilty of it without even realizing it.) The list goes on. I know it's easier to just fill in the answers in the obvious way, but I value honesty. It might be worth it to risk the $500 or so application fee and run into a tough case officer who won't accept anything less than "Yes, sir."
I would never want the citizenship of a country I'm not willing to die for.
A country is a very complex thing; there is the physical land the country is on, there is the people within the country, there are the various cultures which exist there, there is the legally defined international entity. Which of these are you prepared to die for?
The government? Governments are often corrupt, and dont always represent their people very well, so are you prepared to die to prop up your current regime? What if a government you personally believe is better starts a coup? Will you defend your existing government, or the new one?
The land? Will you be prepared to die to defend a piece of land? What if you were offered another piece of land of equal value, somewhere else in the country?
The people? Will you die to defend people you barely know, just because they are associated with by country, the government, the land, their cultural similarity to yourself? If one of your countrymen and a foreign national were fighting to the death, would you step in and defend your countryman? What if it were your countryman and two foreign nationals?
The culture? Will you be prepared to die for the sake of some element of your culture? Suppose your government banned certain types of music? Or speaking in certain dialects?
People really need to start thinking about what they actually mean whey they say they would "Die for my country". Most people who say this are either lying, or are puppets for the current regime, or don't value their lives very much.
