(ridiculously long post deleted)

It's no good. I really need to write this all down in a book, or I'll spend the thread trying to condense it all into about 20-30 minutes' unedited, unproof-read typing.

Suffice to say that I disagree. With pretty much everything you posted.


[Edited by - stimarco on June 21, 2010 6:18:58 PM]

Re: Hudaw

Could you return to this question:

Quote: Original post by Wai
Re: Timeline

What is an example of timeline that you shouldn't make?

Quote: Don't make a timeline on a piece of paper like you did for a book report in 1st Grade.

What is an example of an outline that you should make?

Quote: The first thing you have to do is look at the very big picture. When you created your plotline, you made a general outline (hopefully).

I think timeline is an important asset in the design process. A timeline is a reference. The more you can document a concept, the more likely that another person can add to the content. Imagine the Gundam universe has no timeline. It wouldn't be able to expand as well as it is. (I am not a Gundam fan.)




Re The Role of Story

Quote: The story gives a reason for the player's actions in-game. The experience lends strength to the story.

I agree that this is a reason. It follows the progression: tell, show, experience. The gaming medium allows the player to experience your world by being a character in the world.

I want to point out an alternate expression that is closer to stimarco's perspective.

"The scenario gives a context for the player's to interact in-game. The interpreted experience gives rise to the story."

The subtle difference in this statement is that you as the designer dictates the environment, but not the story. The story depends on he player's decisions. The player does not perform action according to decisions made during the 'story'. The player instantiates the story by making decisions. I don't think that this is a necessarily a better design goal, although it could be, since MMORPG follows this design goal.

Do you think that it is necessarily better?

Quote: Original post by Wai
Re: Hudaw

Could you return to this question:

Quote: Original post by Wai
Re: Timeline

What is an example of timeline that you shouldn't make?

Quote: Don't make a timeline on a piece of paper like you did for a book report in 1st Grade.

What is an example of an outline that you should make?

Quote: The first thing you have to do is look at the very big picture. When you created your plotline, you made a general outline (hopefully).

I think timeline is an important asset in the design process. A timeline is a reference. The more you can document a concept, the more likely that another person can add to the content. Imagine the Gundam universe has no timeline. It wouldn't be able to expand as well as it is. (I am not a Gundam fan.)




Re The Role of Story

Quote: The story gives a reason for the player's actions in-game. The experience lends strength to the story.

I agree that this is a reason. It follows the progression: tell, show, experience. The gaming medium allows the player to experience your world by being a character in the world.

I want to point out an alternate expression that is closer to stimarco's perspective.

"The scenario gives a context for the player's to interact in-game. The interpreted experience gives rise to the story."

The subtle difference in this statement is that you as the designer dictate the environment, but not the story. The story depends on the player's decisions. The player does not perform action according to decisions made during the 'story'. The player instantiates the story by making decisions. I don't think that this is a necessarily a better design goal, although it could be, since MMORPG follows this design goal.

Do you think that it is necessarily better?

Very good questions. I'll do my best to answer them.


In reference to the timeline, I don't mean this in the way of canon, I mean going to a piece of paper and going 'A happened, then b happened, then c happened.' To me, this just obstructs the entire thought process and forces you to leave out things that you wouldn't leave out when you're drawing it out on a piece of paper with arrows. I've never made a physical timeline using a straight line and the perpendicular event lines. I may work for some, but no one that I've ever met does this. I may just delete that remark, however, so that you for brining it up.



In reference to the player dictating the story: I think I know what you're saying. You're saying that the player should feel that what they're doing in the game is influencing what's going to happen next, and not like they're being led down a straight pathway. This, I agree with, and I'll add this in there. I'm glad I'm getting some feedback that I can use here.




In reference to the outline, what I'm referring to is sort of the way the timeline works, only this is something that doesn't take up 19 MB as an image on your computer. It's kind of like a book report, or when you outlined a chapter in a history book back in High School. While still fairly vague in terms of event number and depth, the outline should include important events, pivotal moments in the story, and some character-defining moments. Small side-quests and small-battle missions shouldn't really be included. This is especially useful if you're going to make more than one playable character. It's easier to first write about the main event that the characters engage in, then write the event for each character separately. This is to avoid random ideas finding their way into one character's plotline and be excluded from another, which may kind of throw off the story.



Thank you for the questions. I will add those when I get the chance.

Re: Different styles of the role of story in game

Quote: You're saying that the player should feel that what they're doing in the game is influencing what's going to happen next, and not like they're being led down a straight pathway.

To avoid unnecessary argument, I think it is better not to judge what role a story ought to have in a game. So we simply consider these two as separate styles:

1) The story gives reason for the player to perform an action in-game
2) The story is created with the player interacts with the designed environment

To decide which style is better for a game, we would need to know the goals of the game and the target audience. To decide which style is better for games in general, we would need to know the common goals of games and the factors common to all target audience.


Re: Timeline and Plot outline

I think we agree that both timeline and plotline should contain the information it should contain and not irrelevant information. Both would be bad if they contain details that the author cannot hide when he doesn't want to see them. I am saying it this way because at different stage of the design, the designer might want to see different level of details. With software, both timeline and plotline can be hierarchically displayed.

The difference between timeline and plotline is that timeline lists events in the order they occur in the world, while plotline lists events in the order they are presented. An event can only exist on a timeline once. Whereas it could exist on a plotline several times. The timeline shows the logical flow of the events, while the plotline shows the dramatical flow of the story.

I think the timeline is especially important when the game world changes is continually changing, and the changes matter to the story.


Re: Inspiration

Quote: Of course, it doesn't exactly happen this way, but fairly close to it. Something inspires you, and you build upon it. From this initial idea branch characters, events, twists, and great dialogue sequences.

How do you know that your story is not a copy cat of what you have watched last night? Does it matter? In your design process, do you consider why you want to write the story or what you want to achieve with the story? Should the author think about this? If so, when? How?

I think that copy-cat is kind of a form of inspiration, a very weak form, but a form nonetheless.

I do think that the author should think about why they're writing the story, and what they hope to achieve with it. IT brings you to your events, helps you dictate how your events should unfold to bring you to the logical conclusion that you want to end up at, and the writer needs to be thinking about this during the entire design process. However, it must not overtake their thoughts because the author may twist the fabric of reality to fit their plotline. A writer has to be understanding of the fact that the rules of reality don't bend for them unless they wish to set the story in a science-fiction or fantasy setting, in which you also lose an audience.

Quote: Original post by Hudaw
I do think that the author should think about why they're writing the story, and what they hope to achieve with it.

It's also important to keep the audience in mind.
It's also a good idea to avoid cliches.

There are several different rules to keep in mind. Sometimes, in a particular instance, one rule might trump another. There are always exceptions to the rules, even this one.

In my opinion, if there's an exception to every rule, then there are no rules, really. If I sat here and listed every single exception to every one of my guidlines, I doubt if people would remain interested for very long.

Knowledge Beyond Tips

This thread was originally titled as a handbook. Now it is titled as a list of tips. I want to encourage Hudaw and anyone else reading this to develop it beyond a list of tips. As Tom points out, the usefulness of rules and tips are limited by the specific context and constraints of a design.

Alternatively, we could talk about the properties of the tool and devices used in the design of a story. These properties are always true, and we could maintain multiple effective uses so that we know the possibilities.



Example:

Topic: Flashback

A flashback is a type of scene corresponding to an event that occurs before the events presented in scenes so far.

(Background concepts: A scene is an element on a plotline. An event is an element on the timeline. A scene may draw its content from the timeline, but it may also contain abstract presentation that do not exist on the timeline such as breaking the fourth wall or using a narrator.)


Reasons to use a flashback:
o Since a flashback necessarily contains an event, it inherits all common reasons to use an event within a scene. For a full list of those reasons, click [This] to show the reasons to use event in scene)
o To refresh the audience's memory of a past event to help them interpret the story
o To tell the audience a past event to help them interpret the story
o (Insert your reasons to use flashback)

Alternatives to flashback:
o Add an event where a character talks about the past
o Add an event where a character imagines the past
o Add an event where the past is re-enacted
o Present an item in the event that implies the past
o Break the fourth wall and let a character talk to the audience
o Use a narrator and comment on the situation.
o (Insert your alternatives to using flashback)


Try writing something similar for Foreshadowing, since Foreshadowing is also a type of scene. For every topic mentioned in the post we could expand and do the same.


Topic: Revealing character traits

Revealing character traits is a function of a scene.

Reasons to reveal character traits
o (Insert your thoughts here)

Ways to reveal character traits
o (Insert your thoughts here)

Alternatives to revealing character traits
o (Insert your thoughts here)


Topic: Allusion to past events
Type: Function of a scene
Reasons:
o ...
Methods:
o ...
Alternatives:
o ...


If there are no rules, what can you talk about?

You can talk about templates. When you learn how to program, you often look for the "Hello World!" example to learn the syntax of the program or the development environment. You can do the same about writing. Instead of presenting information as The Way, just show it as a way. The different between presenting templates instead of presenting tips is that the reader should get a consistent result after following a template, whereas a list of random tips could lead the reader going in circles.

The template should be presented with no gap in knowledge. If a reader follows every step of the presentation, the reader must (absolutely must) get a result. The result could be simple, but the reader must get one.

Do you want to try presenting a template?