Im hearing a lot of stuff lately on TV and the internet about Anti-Vaxers. I havnt found an exact definition for the term, but I think it means someone who does not want to get a vaccination (ie, the swine flu vaccination). It could also possibly mean someone who doesnt believe in science and medicine, and who thinks that vaccinations dont work and are a hoax. Obviously the definition matters a lot. Unless someone who knows better can enlighten me on what it actually means, I'm going with definition #1. I know how vaccines work and I understand that the swine flu vax is supposed to be particularly effective. I just plain dont want to get it, but not for crazy anti-medicine reasons. Im hearing a lot of really negative things about anti-vaxers. They are called scum, evil people, stupid, and worse. People are really hateful toward them. This is pretty disturbing. I like to think that we should have a choice wether to get injected with a vaccine or not, but the social pressure seems to be extremely high in some places. Its driven by paranoia, people dont want to get sick so badly that they start seeing non-vaccinated people as dirty infected rats who should be quarrentined away somewhere. Its pretty insane. Reading a discussion between a anti-vaxer and vaxer is like reading an intense discussion between an atheist and an evangelical christian. Is anyone else noticing this?

It basically is exactly like an atheist arguing with an evangelical Christian.

On the one side you have good science and evidence-backed facts. On the other side you have somebody who has formed an opinion and impervious to both evidence and logic.


Go and read about Herd Immunity - the TL;DR is that if you vaccinate 90% of the community (actual figure depends on the virus), this provides protection for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

Sure, you might say - let the "anti-vaxers" not get vaccinated and if they get sick then sucks for them. The problem is that their retarded movement is at risk of pushing herd immunities below the threshold for full community protection. Thus removing protection for everybody not vaccinated - including babies, young children and the elderly who cannot be vaccinated and who also have the weakest immune systems.


The anti-vaccination people are basing their beliefs on anecdotes and "Foxtard"-level paranoia. They are impervious to science and ignorant of the horrible toll that many now-well-vaccinated-against diseases once took on humanity.

Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant
I just plain dont want to get it, but not for crazy anti-medicine reasons.

Out of interest, can we ask what the reasons are?
I usually don't get flu vaccines just because I'm too lazy to go to the doctor, but on the occasion that my workplace gets a nurse in to do them at the office then I'll get one. It's not like it's cost prohibitive either.

Quote: I like to think that we should have a choice wether to ... but the social pressure...

Social pressure, especially on TV, doesn't mean you don't have a choice. TV here bombards me with messages that if I smoke then I'll curse my family to watch me become vegetative after having a stroke, or if I drink my kids will grow up to be alcoholics, or if I don't eat red-meat I'll be dumb, or if I do eat meat I'm immoral, or if I smoke pot I'll kill people... but I'm still free to make my own choices. This social pressure is just trying to guide me to make "responsible" choices, but I'm free to disagree with them without any real consequence.
If anyone in my immediate social group chooses to ostracise me for making some personal choice, then I can choose to tell them to go f themselves ;)

Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant
Is anyone else noticing this?

Not really. It's not an issue over here. Might have something to do with the fact that, at least with regards to H1N1, the vast majority of the population is what you'd call an "anti-vaxer".

On the news they recently said that in Germany, where the government apparently bought H1N1 vaccines for almost the entire population, only about 5% of the population got vaccinated. The government is currently thinking of selling its huge unused stock of vaccine to Ukraine, for a fraction of the original price.

Things are very different for actually dangerous diseases though (eg. the standard DPT vaccines for kids, which is virtually universal over here).

Quote: Original post by AndreTheGiant
I like to think that we should have a choice wether to get injected with a vaccine or not, but the social pressure seems to be extremely high in some places. Its driven by paranoia, people dont want to get sick so badly that they start seeing non-vaccinated people as dirty infected rats who should be quarrentined away somewhere. Its pretty insane. Reading a discussion between a anti-vaxer and vaxer is like reading an intense discussion between an atheist and an evangelical christian.

This is a prefect example, and I will use it. Teaching both evolution and intelligent design at the same time like they were equal is disingenuous because they're not equal. One is valid science while the other is valid theology.

Likewise, anti-vaccination do not have any evidence based on facts, only a correlation that can be explained with other natural methods, a whole lot of falsehoods and an emotional case. Being against vaccinations is, as the end, a faith based choice(either religious or faith in psuedoscience), and if it is framed as anything else, it is also disingenuous. They are not equal scientific choices.

If a anti-vaxer decides to make a choice under the guide of psudoscience, rather than a strictly religious faith, it is only fair to point out that science shows
1. Their evidence is entirely false
2. A large number of people who are not vaccinated are breeders of diseases, which can threaten those that are vaccinated if those diseases mutate; therefore
making a choice that not only effects them, but effects the population around them.

Number 2 is not a paranoid conclusion. It is an evidence based conclusion. Clicky.

I was in France recently and happened to talk to some of the locals. Apparently even the French think their country is screwed up. A couple of the people even said they want to leave for Amsterdam or London as soon as they get their act together. Well, it's their choice.

What struck me as odd out of the many reasons that were brought up was something closely related to this topic: government-forced vaccinations which are being seriously debated right now; whereas according to the few people I talked to the government is a fine mixture of corruption and total lack of control (in that medical companies have far too great a say in state matters). The idea behind the argument was quite contrary to the scientific proof mentioned above. I'll try to sum it up in a sentence or two: when people are vaccinated against bird or swine flu, the primary premise is that the disease is deadly (which, compared to something like regular flu, it is very far from, having only claimed a few lives in non-third-world countries (such as France)). The problem, however, lies in the vaccine itself, which is a hormonal thing (for lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary) that strengthens the immune system considerably (sometimes in the order of magnitude of 10-30 times); this, in turn, has a relatively high probability of inducing a breakdown in the immune system, which results in its collapse, which in return results in an AIDS-like state where your body will be incapable of defending itself against just about anything, starting with common cold.

Since I quite honestly do not care much for this whole thing, forgive me for not going into the trouble of providing links or anything. Even if the premise behind the paranoia is invalid and the people were consipracy theorists, there appears to be something very fishy going on in the French government.

This "anti-vaxer" terminology seems to be US-specific, but it is my impression that over here on the other side of the pond, people aren't running for the vaccine. I haven't gotten a shot myself, and the reason for this is very simple:

I have never, ever in my life gotten a flu vaccination. Why change this now?

The fact is, the flu - and this includes the swine flu - is not a particular dangerous disease (with the usual caveats about specific segments of the population). It's not like we're talking about hepatitis or yellow fever here. And on top of that, any vaccination that you get this year will likely be completely useless next year.

As far as government-side disaster prevention is concerned, they'd be better advised building up stockpiles of Tamiflu or similar medication that will actually work against *any* flu strain, not just against the strain de jour.

You should be at least a little suspicious about the fact that we *never* get a comparable vaccination drive trumpeted from all media outlets for the normal flu season. (No, there is no conspiracy here. Just an unfortunate sequence of events that led to a completely unnecessary craze; crying wolf, anyone?)

Quote: Original post by irreversible
government-forced vaccinations which are being seriously debated right now;

Bullshit. No one with their right mind would even think about debating something like this. A few hippie conspiracy nuts made stuff up, turned a few words around, and submerged the press with it.

Quote: Original post by irreversible
Since I quite honestly do not care much for this whole thing, forgive me for not going into the trouble of providing links or anything. Even if the premise behind the paranoia is invalid and the people were consipracy theorists, there appears to be something very fishy going on in the French government.

The only fishy thing is the usual governmental incompetence at organizing anything larger scale on a short term notice. Add to that the usual corporate lobbyism, the usual regular strikes of involved medical personnel (who want more money), and you get the typical French chaos as a result.

Fact is, if you are not part of a 'high risk group' (medical staff, etc), you cannot even get vaccinated at this point. We were supposed to get vouchers for a free shot end of november, but I'm still waiting. Only a very small percentage of the population is vaccinated at this time. Reading the local press (which is slightly less biased than the larger national papers, such as eg. the French equivalents of the Sun), and talking to people around me, no one is seriously thinking about getting vaccinated. H1N1 is essentially harmless, and people know it.

Yep, it's chaotic and soaked in general logistical incompetence. Looking at our German neighbors, it doesn't seem that much better there either. But there's no evil government plan behind this, no nanobots in the vaccine that will control your mind, or whatever other conspiracy theory is doing its rounds on the media.

Quote:
The problem, however, lies in the vaccine itself, which is a hormonal thing (for lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary) that strengthens the immune system considerably (sometimes in the order of magnitude of 10-30 times); this, in turn, has a relatively high probability of inducing a breakdown in the immune system, which results in its collapse, which in return results in an AIDS-like state where your body will be incapable of defending itself against just about anything, starting with common cold.

You mean adjuvants. Yeah, that has been a big debate over here. What people fail to see is that a lot of other vaccines have used them for years. Also, you can choose if you want a vaccine with or without adjuvant. Or just no vaccine at all.

I don't know what the whole fuzz is about. *shrug*

Quote: Original post by Yann L

Quote: Original post by irreversible
government-forced vaccinations which are being seriously debated right now;

Bullshit. No one with their right mind would even think about debating something like this.

That's what I said - the Magna Charta and everything. In a democratic state no one can put anything in your body without your express consent.

PS - are you in France or Belgium Yann? off-topic: I'm going to Belgium for waffles mid-January. Yum.

Quote: Original post by irreversible
PS - are you in France or Belgium Yann?

France. I used to live in Belgium for some time, but that was years ago.