Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

I don't how DRM is anything more than a ton of wasted effort. I find it amazing that so many millions are being spent on an effort that security professionals must already have advised them is futile.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Would you say Steam is unsuccessful? What about iTunes?

Certainly, people can make money in ventures related to DRM. But ... I'd point out a couple of issues with those questions.

1) Steam and iTunes are not solely DRM technologies. They are content marketplaces. Really, iTunes would be an excellent example of wholly ineffective DRM, since I can easily buy a song then play it while I have a separate recorder running. I would then have a pirated copy, completely-free of any further DRM hassles.
2) But if you know of any game, song, or movie that Steam/iTunes has prevented from being pirated, I'd be interested in hearing it.




Reagrding whether money is made with DRM....
I'm sure someone ended up getting paid for the CSS coding used on DVDs, but even if it was a profitable venture, it couldn't have stopped piracy even in theory. Of course the DVD-CSS scheme was cracked, and any supposedly "protected" content was easily pirated. I consider that a wasted effort at providing security -- even if someone did make a few bucks, it was for little more than snake oil.

Quote: The flip-side is the movie/dvd experience. Philosophically, I don't believe in piracy. I'm happy to pay for my content, but bloody hell the movie studios make it hard! If the movie I want even comes out in NZ, I have to sit through a bunch of ads that I can't skip. Worse, I have to sit through a @#$@ing stupid warning [dl.dropbox.com] about piracy, when I paid for the bloody movie!! grrr

+1.

Seriously, if you can reach a wider audience, reduce your marginal costs, and give people one less reason to download the pirated version, why wouldn't you want to?

At some near point in the future, I, as a home consumer, will be able to go sit on my couch, and with a few idiotic button presses (If we still have a need for buttons) legally watch a stream of the nth episode of Star Trek right on my big screen plasma, with a copy of the movie cached automatically on my home network hard drive for future reuse.

Honestly, the only reason I don't think that's happening right now, is some ridiculous perception from movie distributors that NOT distributing movies electronically will somehow prevent them from being pirated.

EDIT: iTunes doesn't allow us dirty foreigners to download movies :).

[Edited by - WazzatMan on December 3, 2009 12:19:12 AM]

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

I don't how DRM is anything more than a ton of wasted effort. I find it amazing that so many millions are being spent on an effort that security professionals must already have advised them is futile.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Would you say Steam is unsuccessful? What about iTunes?

Certainly, people can make money in ventures related to DRM. But ... I'd point out a couple of issues with those questions.

1) Steam and iTunes are not solely DRM technologies. They are content marketplaces. Really, iTunes would be an excellent example of wholly ineffective DRM, since I can easily buy a song then play it while I have a separate recorder running. I would then have a pirated copy, completely-free of any further DRM hassles.
2) But if you know of any game, song, or movie that Steam/iTunes has prevented from being pirated, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Indeed, what steam and itunes does is to make it awfully easy and convinient to buy, no hoops to jump through, the store is open 24/7 and its basically located right where you are, It gives you the same kind of convinience you get from various filesharing networks except its legal.

I've bought plenty of DRM free games both from steam (Though steams selection of DRM free games is fairly limited) and gog.com, fast and easy access is more important than the price for alot of people.

Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

I don't how DRM is anything more than a ton of wasted effort. I find it amazing that so many millions are being spent on an effort that security professionals must already have advised them is futile.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Would you say Steam is unsuccessful? What about iTunes?

The key here is about the customer experience. Piracy will always offer the best cost, so you have to beat it by making sure you offer the best value. Moral issues aside (and like it or not, there is a moral issue here), these days I simply find it more convenient to buy my games/music from Steam/iTunes. I know I'll actually get what I want without the risk of malware or the hassle of searching for a torrent. And DRM? Meh, it essentially doesn't effect me. All of my iTunes music is DRM-free, so no hassles there. As for steam, most of the games I play are online, and if my net connection goes down (like it did last night), I fire it up in offline mode and away I go. I've even got a few games installed on my netbook.

The flip-side is the movie/dvd experience. Philosophically, I don't believe in piracy. I'm happy to pay for my content, but bloody hell the movie studios make it hard! If the movie I want even comes out in NZ, I have to sit through a bunch of ads that I can't skip. Worse, I have to sit through a @#$@ing stupid warning about piracy, when I paid for the bloody movie!! grrr

I agree, except for iTunes. I still buy music on CDs through Amazon or whatnot. Main reason: iTunes only lets you download once. I don't mind paying full price for Steam/GoG/Impulse because I'm also paying for a 'storage' service of being able to download the products as many times as I wish. With iTunes I pay the same price as a CD and don't get free backups. Screw that.

Quote: Original post by curtmax_0

I agree, except for iTunes. I still buy music on CDs through Amazon or whatnot. Main reason: iTunes only lets you download once. I don't mind paying full price for Steam/GoG/Impulse because I'm also paying for a 'storage' service of being able to download the products as many times as I wish. With iTunes I pay the same price as a CD and don't get free backups. Screw that.

Yeah, that annoys me too, but in NZ iTunes is generally ~60% of the cost of a cd, so I tend to buy more music on it if I'm not already a fan of the band. I still buy cds though.

Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse

1) Steam and iTunes are not solely DRM technologies. They are content marketplaces. Really, iTunes would be an excellent example of wholly ineffective DRM, since I can easily buy a song then play it while I have a separate recorder running. I would then have a pirated copy, completely-free of any further DRM hassles.
2) But if you know of any game, song, or movie that Steam/iTunes has prevented from being pirated, I'd be interested in hearing it.

That's a good point about the market places, and I completely agree that steam/itunes as a DRM only service would be nothing more than an annoyance. It's because they provide the extra value that I can look past the DRM.

As for games etc, that have been prevented from piracy, I don't have any hard numbers, but I'm pretty sure I read that the incidence of piracy for Valve games is lower because of steam.

damnit, can't find the source, so feel free to disregard.

Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine
As for games etc, that have been prevented from piracy, I don't have any hard numbers, but I'm pretty sure I read that the incidence of piracy for Valve games is lower because of steam.

Back when I went to LAN parties, I had to install pirated versions of HL2:DM and CS:S alongside my legitimate copies, so I could play on the pirate servers hosted at the LAN :/ My legit copies wouldn't connect because of version mis-matches.

I'm pretty sure Steams copy protection is just as easily broken as other methods, though the fact that it's easier to buy legit than to get a torrent probably does help combat piracy from people with healthy credit cards ;)

Also, I've heard stories of people finding flaws in the authentication system that allowed them to download any Steam game they wanted (from steams servers) without paying for it...

Quote: Original post by Lode
.... still play Unreal Tournament ...

Like, word?




I don't play games that much at all anymore, but I did buy Defense Grid for like $5.50 on Steam a while back. Why would I pirate anything if distributors are playing nice like that? Besides, I haven't come across a decent FPS in years - HL1/SS2 for single player, UT (original) for multiplayer. Has it already been a decade? Thought so. Besides, even if I had the time, I wouldn't be motivated to go into the trouble of either buying or pirating just about anything, much less shelling out wads for a decent gaming rig.

What I really cannot wrap my head around (whilst not owning any consoles myself) are the prices for console games. No offence, but I'd rather buy 5-7 decent books for that money. And some ice cream.

In any case, I had my Minesweeper phase and now Solitaire's creeping up on me again. Gettin' old.